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-   -   What happened to the "Commodore" Rank? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=211255)

Infern0 May 1 2013 12:23 PM

What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
It seemed to be retired sometime between the TOS and TNG eras. Or at least I don't remember any Commodores in the TNG era.

The rank would have suited Sisko imo.

bullethead May 1 2013 12:39 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
They probably retired it after seeing a bunch of them do crazy/dumb things in Kirk's time as captain.

ZapBrannigan May 1 2013 01:07 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
Fleet Captain is another rank that dropped out of Star Trek parlance, at a similar authority level too.

The Wormhole May 1 2013 01:23 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
In real life, the US Navy phased out Commodore in the 1980s and replaced it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half. Therefore it was decided in Star Trek that Starfleet would eliminate the rank as well.

StarCruiser May 1 2013 03:42 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
The "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" crap was enacted for political reasons. Congress couldn't rap it's combined head (combined IQ of 90) around the idea of a Flag officer not having rank of Admiral (of some type).

I would have kept the Commodore rank in place - allowing one Flag rank to still have the possibility of commanding a ship in the field. Anyone higher than that would be only a Flag officer, i.e. commanding divisions of the fleet, facilities etc...

Bry_Sinclair May 1 2013 05:00 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
I think Starfleet Command would have brought it back for Sisko, otherwise they'd have to face him going Sisko on their collective asses.

Melakon May 1 2013 05:29 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
I never understood them dropping the Commodore rank, and feel it was a mistake to pattern Starfleet so closely on the US Navy. In my own fictional universe, I use army/air force ranks from both American and UK organizations.

R. Star May 1 2013 05:59 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
Quote:

Melakon wrote: (Post 8028982)
I never understood them dropping the Commodore rank, and feel it was a mistake to pattern Starfleet so closely on the US Navy. In my own fictional universe, I use army/air force ranks from both American and UK organizations.

No, Starfleet is the West incarnate. And the West is America. Submit! ;)

Hartzilla2007 May 1 2013 06:03 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
Quote:

bullethead wrote: (Post 8028055)
They probably retired it after seeing a bunch of them do crazy/dumb things in Kirk's time as captain.

Under than logic they should retire the Admiral Ranks as well ;)

T'Girl May 1 2013 06:20 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 8028160)
In real life, the US Navy phased out Commodore in the 1980s and replaced it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half. Therefore it was decided in Star Trek that Starfleet would eliminate the rank as well.

But, but, but ... Starfleet has nothing to do with the US Navy ... nothing I tell you.

Seriously, it's very possible that the rank of Commodore still exists and we're just not seeing anyone of that rank. It's like TOS and the rank of lieutenant junior grade, there were some officers with a single broken stripe, but for the most part you didn't see them. Seems like you go straight from ensign to full lieutenant.

Danger Ace May 1 2013 09:39 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 8028160)
In real life, the US Navy phased out Commodore in the 1980s and replaced it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half. Therefore it was decided in Star Trek that Starfleet would eliminate the rank as well.

And that is why, I believe, they dropped it. The U.S. Navy and U.S. Coast Guard were both used in helping define Starfleet (though there have been colonels - Star Trek VI had at least one IIRC).

Quote:

StarCruiser wrote: (Post 8028646)
The "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" crap was enacted for political reasons. Congress couldn't rap it's combined head (combined IQ of 90) around the idea of a Flag officer not having rank of Admiral (of some type).

Do we really know that it was a unilateral move by congress that forced the elimination the rank of "commodore" or whether it was done at the request of the Navy itself (or Joint Chiefs)?

Quote:

Melakon wrote: (Post 8028982)
I never understood them dropping the Commodore rank, ...

Two reasons: 1) the US Navy dropped it; 2) There was a period when "Commodore" conjured up images of ascot wearing Yacht club ne'er-do-wells.

Quote:

... and feel it was a mistake to pattern Starfleet so closely on the US Navy. In my own fictional universe, I use army/air force ranks from both American and UK organizations.
As do many other authors. Why would one try to put forth the notion that there is only one correct way to setup a fictional military service? If you want, use the Iranian or Chinese navies as your source as they still have commodores.

Melakon May 1 2013 09:59 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
I save foreign or archaic ranks (like Subaltern) for my alien races' militaries. Then one day I found Jemadar in the thesaurus lists, and realized Star Trek was doing the same thing.

C.E. Evans May 1 2013 10:07 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 8029225)
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 8028160)
In real life, the US Navy phased out Commodore in the 1980s and replaced it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half. Therefore it was decided in Star Trek that Starfleet would eliminate the rank as well.

But, but, but ... Starfleet has nothing to do with the US Navy ... nothing I tell you.

Seriously, it's very possible that the rank of Commodore still exists and we're just not seeing anyone of that rank. It's like TOS and the rank of lieutenant junior grade, there were some officers with a single broken stripe, but for the most part you didn't see them. Seems like you go straight from ensign to full lieutenant.

That was the case during TMP (there was no lieutenant j.g. rank according to a memo associate producer Jon Povill gave to costume designer Bob Fletcher--one broken stripe meant ensign, one full stripe meant lieutenant).

But during TOS, we did see a lieutenant j.g. Joe Tormolen with one broken stripe on his sleeves.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0230.jpg

Mysterion May 1 2013 10:42 PM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
From wikipedia, a history of the rank of commodore in US Navy usage:

Quote:

In 1899 the substantive rank of commodore was discontinued in the United States Navy, but revived during World War II. It was discontinued as a rank in these services during the postwar period, but as an appointment, the title "commodore" was then used to identify senior U.S. Navy captains who commanded squadrons of more than one vessel or functional air wings or air groups that were not part of a carrier air wing or air group. Concurrently, until the early 1980s, U.S. Navy and U.S. Coast Guard captains selected for promotion to the rank of rear admiral (lower half), would wear the same insignia as rear admiral (upper half), i.e., two silver stars for collar insignia or sleeve braid of one wide and one narrow gold stripe, even though they were actually only equivalent to one-star officers and paid at the one-star rate.
To correct this inequity, the rank of commodore as a single star flag officer was reinstated by both services in the early 1980s. This immediately caused confusion with those senior U.S. Navy captains commanding destroyer squadrons, submarine squadrons, functional air wings and air groups, and so on, who held the temporary "title" of commodore while in their major command billet. As a result of this confusion, the services soon renamed the new one-star rank as commodore admiral (CADM) within the first six months following the rank's reintroduction. However, this was considered an awkward title and the one-star flag rank was renamed a few months later to its current title of rear admiral (lower half), later abbreviated by the U.S. Navy and U.S. Coast Guard as RDML.
The "title" of commodore continues to be used in the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard for those senior captains in command of organizations consisting of groups of ships or submarines organized into squadrons; air wings or air groups of multiple aviation squadrons other than carrier air wings (the latter whose commanders still use the title "CAG"); explosive ordnance disposal (EOD), mine warfare and special warfare (SEAL) groups; and construction battalion (SeaBee) regiments. Although not flag officers, modern day commodores in the U.S. Navy rate a blue and white command pennant that is normally flown at their headquarters facilities ashore or from ships that they are embarked aboard when they are the senior officer afloat.
Apply it to Starfleet history/usage as you see fit.

USS Excelsior May 2 2013 04:35 AM

Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?
 
Fleet Captain still exists but it's not an official rank, just a position for a particular mission if there's no Admiral in charge out in the field. Like during Redemption when Picard had that position when they had their blockade.


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