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-   -   Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=210994)

JediKnightButler April 28 2013 09:59 PM

Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Following the events of "Empok Nor", would it not have made sense for the Federation to take control of Empok Nor and make it into a Federation starbase a la Deep Space Nine? Seems like a missed opportunity to me though I suppose that it's possible that they might not have had the time and/or resources to fix it up as it was discovered(?) near the start of the Dominion War but still.....Were there any official reasons given anywhere why they didn't? And there was not one but two more trips to the station during the season. I would speculate that there might have been a treaty stipulation between the Federation and Cardassians but any treaties with the Cardies were pretty much moot at that point anyway.........

Christopher April 28 2013 10:01 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
In the novels set after the series finale, Empok Nor was used as a source of replacement components for DS9.

George Steinbrenner April 28 2013 10:10 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 8015695)
Following the events of "Empok Nor", would it not have made sense for the Federation to take control of Empok Nor and make it into a Federation starbase a la Deep Space Nine?

It was probably too badly damaged to be returned to full operation.

MickJo1701 April 28 2013 10:13 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Empok Nor was located in the Trivas system inside Cardassian space, I doubt they would be fond of the idea of Starfleet setting up a base inside their territory, most likely it would have started the war.

JediKnightButler April 28 2013 10:14 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Quote:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: (Post 8015740)
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 8015695)
Following the events of "Empok Nor", would it not have made sense for the Federation to take control of Empok Nor and make it into a Federation starbase a la Deep Space Nine?

It was probably too badly damaged to be returned to full operation.

It looked to be running pretty well in "Covenant". At the time of "Empok Nor", I'd probably agree with that assessment. It always looked weird situated on its side- at least in "Empok Nor" and "The Magnificent Ferengi".

JediKnightButler April 28 2013 10:16 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Quote:

MickJo1701 wrote: (Post 8015746)
Empok Nor was located in the Trivas system inside Cardassian space, I doubt they would be fond of the idea of Starfleet setting up a base inside their territory, most likely it would have started the war.

Well, that does make more sense. Of course, following the war having a starbase there could help the Cardies with their reconstruction having the Federation Alliance setting up a presence there not unlike the Federation did with Bajor and DS9......

Christopher April 28 2013 10:26 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 8015749)
It always looked weird situated on its side- at least in "Empok Nor" and "The Magnificent Ferengi".

Which was a silly conceit, since there's no up or down in space. It wasn't "on its side," it's just that they chose to tilt the camera relative to it as a visual shorthand to convey "damaged and listing" to our gravity-conditioned eyes.

Dr. Sevrin April 28 2013 11:01 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Did they have a CGI station yet for those episodes? I'm thinking it wasn't until the final episode for that big pullback shot. If they had, Empok Nor could have been done with lights off and a partial pylon or ring exposing superstructure.

MacLeod April 28 2013 11:40 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8015794)
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 8015749)
It always looked weird situated on its side- at least in "Empok Nor" and "The Magnificent Ferengi".

Which was a silly conceit, since there's no up or down in space. It wasn't "on its side," it's just that they chose to tilt the camera relative to it as a visual shorthand to convey "damaged and listing" to our gravity-conditioned eyes.

Agreed, it's the same when we see ships in many shots. They could be flying at an angle upside down for all we know.

Quote:

Melakon wrote: (Post 8015923)
Did they have a CGI station yet for those episodes? I'm thinking it wasn't until the final episode for that big pullback shot. If they had, Empok Nor could have been done with lights off and a partial pylon or ring exposing superstructure.

Yes, I believe that is the true, the last shot of DSN was the first and only CGI shot of the station.

bullethead April 29 2013 12:02 AM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 8015695)
Following the events of "Empok Nor", would it not have made sense for the Federation to take control of Empok Nor and make it into a Federation starbase a la Deep Space Nine?

Not really. DS9 was a pretty unique situation, where the inhabitants of the planet that owned the station asking the Federation for help operating it. Starfleet had a decent amount of peace time to pour resources into the station to fix most of the problems, but fixing Empok Nor would be a waste of military resources when it was obvious that the Dominion War was right around the corner. Not only that, but operating two ex-Cardassian stations meant that they'd be dependent on their soon-to-be adversaries for parts that they couldn't make themselves.

That said, I could see them trying to do that in the post-war period, but it might be easier to build an all-new starbase than refit something built by people whose cities and industries were blasted to rubble.

Timo April 29 2013 10:53 AM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Quote:

it might be easier to build an all-new starbase
Agreed. We never got an indication that Starfleet or the UFP would find it difficult to erect a starbase in the technological sense. Politics drove them to adopt and adapt Terok Nor, and politics may have played a role in obtaining Farpoint, too. But for all we know, constructing a starbase from scrap is fairly trivial - perhaps even simpler, cheaper and faster than building a much smaller starship because the base doesn't need to move at warp.

What I find quite interesting is the Cardassian side of this equation. Why did they build two seemingly identical stations? Terok Nor was supposedly optimized for controlling and strip-mining Bajor. Was Empok Nor supposed to augment Terok Nor at Bajor, but was abandoned in mid-tow for some reason? Or was it destined for another conquered planet very similar to Bajor?

OTOH, if its location in the middle of nowhere was its intended assignment, why was it of the exact same shape and design as a station intended to operate on fairly low planetary orbit?

Regardless of whether towed in place or built in situ, Empok Nor suggests that even the Cardassian Union can abandon large structures of that sort without much concern - this further implying that their construction is a relative triviality, even for entities weaker than the UFP.

Timo Saloniemi

bullethead April 29 2013 04:07 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 8017891)
What I find quite interesting is the Cardassian side of this equation. Why did they build two seemingly identical stations? Terok Nor was supposedly optimized for controlling and strip-mining Bajor. Was Empok Nor supposed to augment Terok Nor at Bajor, but was abandoned in mid-tow for some reason? Or was it destined for another conquered planet very similar to Bajor?

OTOH, if its location in the middle of nowhere was its intended assignment, why was it of the exact same shape and design as a station intended to operate on fairly low planetary orbit?

Maybe the Cardassians use a really flexible station design that can be used for ore processing or whatever when in orbit of a planet or as a dedicated military resupply and repair facility (if Empok Nor was intended to be out in the middle of nowhere). It would make building the things a lot easier, since you'd only need to pick different modules for each role while keeping the same design and structure for all the stations.

George Steinbrenner April 29 2013 04:35 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
^ I find that very likely. Non-canon though this may be, it's implied in the novels that the Nor-class station design is easily adaptable to different mission profiles.

Timo April 29 2013 08:41 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
This would make plenty of sense. Which is why sort of prefer the idea that Terok Nor was not built in situ (a concept giving it a tad too much "uniqueness") but rather manufactured in a centralized facility of some sort and then towed in place...

The DS9 Tech Manual description of the form of Terok Nor being true to function would have to be largely ignored, then - the pylons would not exist in order to allow for efficient flow of ore from top to bottom or whatever, because clearly this is not the function they serve on Empok Nor. Then again, the DS9 TM also claims that the shape of the station is an architectural choice, with style perhaps being more important than function after all - the station is said to resemble the buildings of the famous architect Tavor Kell.

Timo Saloniemi

tomswift2002 April 29 2013 09:57 PM

Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?
 
Of course with DS9/Terok Nor neither Starfleet or the Federation owned the actual station, so anything that was installed on the station had to be approved by both Bajor and the Federation. (Remember in the Circle episodes everyone stayed behind to pull out all the Federation equipment because the Bajorans were evicting the Federation; plus in "Call To Arms" Kira had to lodge that protest with Sisko on behalf of the Bajorans to say that Starfleet and the Federation were illegal holding DS9, not to mention that in the pilot as well Sisko told Quark that the station was still a Bajoran station and all Starfleet and the Federation were there for were to administrate!)


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