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xvicente April 23 2013 10:51 PM

Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
3 ships full of soldiers -- to conquer an entire planet, in the heart of the Federation?

Let's say all the Spock hologram smokescreen worked as intended. Then it would be what? 2000 soldiers against one planetful of half stubborn pacifists (it would go like "you are conquered!" "no I'm not" much like Spock's "since you will kill us anyway I choose not to cooperate"), half lirpa yielding crazy ponfarring green blooded hobgoblins.

And those flimsy invader ships blew up with one shot each from the warbird. The only way that invasion would last more than a few minutes is if the entire planet Vulcan has not one defensive weapon.

Probably they don't sice they are pacifists, so there is no gun to seize and defend the new romulan colony from the Federation counter attack.

Good going, Sela.

Bry_Sinclair April 23 2013 10:59 PM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
Why not send in ten fleets of D'deridex-Class warbirds and have them surround the planet. Then at a specified time, have them decloak, take out the planetary defences and subspace communications, whilst beaming down thousands of troops to seize the planetary government and neutralise Starfleet's presence.

Vulcan could have been theirs in a matter of hours.

R. Star April 23 2013 11:25 PM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
DS9 once stated when you have fleets of cloaked ships(as few as 20 in The Die is Cast) they're detectable more easily than a single one. By season 5 it's safe to assume those tachion detection grids were all along the neutral zone.

Maybe their plan was to have those Vulcan ships land their 2000 troops and seize the key strategic points, like their High Command, shield generators, planetary defenses and the such and have them pave the way for the traditional troop ships following. Kinda like the Trojan Horse.

Marsden April 24 2013 02:23 AM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
Well, Sela did say that they weren't enough to outright conquer Vulcan, but they would be a dangerous presence that would be hard to wipe out. Imagine setting up a 2000 strong terrorist cell in a nation, that's not easy to get rid of. As to the ships blowing up easily, they were old Vulcan freighters and merchant ships that were unshielded. They were depending on subterfuge, not outright invasion.

And, I hate to say it, but Sela's existence is illogical. Yar died with the Armus killing her. But she wasn't killed in the offshoot timeline created by Enterprise C not finishing it's job, but then went back into the "main" timeline, so there were two Yars in to different places at the same time? Nevermind.

Anwar April 24 2013 04:58 AM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
I fully believe in the theory that the Romulan High Command only OK-ed this plan to set up Sela to be foiled so they'd have a reason to get rid of her once and for all.

t_smitts April 24 2013 06:10 AM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
Quote:

xvicente wrote: (Post 7991329)
3 ships full of soldiers -- to conquer an entire planet, in the heart of the Federation?

Let's say all the Spock hologram smokescreen worked as intended. Then it would be what? 2000 soldiers against one planetful of half stubborn pacifists (it would go like "you are conquered!" "no I'm not" much like Spock's "since you will kill us anyway I choose not to cooperate"), half lirpa yielding crazy ponfarring green blooded hobgoblins.

And those flimsy invader ships blew up with one shot each from the warbird. The only way that invasion would last more than a few minutes is if the entire planet Vulcan has not one defensive weapon.

Probably they don't sice they are pacifists, so there is no gun to seize and defend the new romulan colony from the Federation counter attack.

Good going, Sela.

Where do people get this idea that Vulcans are all pacifists? Was Spock a pacifist? Was Tuvok (a starship's chief of security) a pacifist? Was Captain Solok from "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"? Was Sakonna from "The Maquis"? Was the Saratoga's captain?

Yes, Surak, as we saw him in "The Savage Curtain" was clearly a pacifist (and bear in mind that was Spock's perception of Surak, not necessarily exactly who he was, as we saw with Kahless), but that doesn't mean the entire race is bound to dealing with an invasion force Ghandi-style.

(Oh, great, now I'm picturing Ghandi doing that viral video dance). :lol:

Quote:

Marsden wrote: (Post 7992379)
Well, Sela did say that they weren't enough to outright conquer Vulcan, but they would be a dangerous presence that would be hard to wipe out. Imagine setting up a 2000 strong terrorist cell in a nation, that's not easy to get rid of. As to the ships blowing up easily, they were old Vulcan freighters and merchant ships that were unshielded. They were depending on subterfuge, not outright invasion.

And, I hate to say it, but Sela's existence is illogical. Yar died with the Armus killing her. But she wasn't killed in the offshoot timeline created by Enterprise C not finishing it's job, but then went back into the "main" timeline, so there were two Yars in to different places at the same time? Nevermind.

You can apparently have a character from an alternate future take a one-way trip to the past and not necessarily directly harm the life of their younger self, even if they come into contact. "Endgame" did it, and I believe it happened in a movie that Abrams guy directed. :rolleyes:

R. Star April 24 2013 06:28 AM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
And people wonder why I dislike time travel episodes in general. Trek beat that horse until it was dead, then did some :censored: things to it afterward.

Timo April 24 2013 02:18 PM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
The usual rationalizations:

1) The plan was to conquer and hold Vulcan for X number of days, for propaganda reasons only. 2,000 troops were plenty enough for it, as history shows us that troop requirements go way down as technology evolves. The plan failed. The villains told the heroes that this was what they intended, and then let them escape - which makes it the least likely alternative to actually be true.

2) The plan was to conquer Vulcan for good. There were no troops aboard the old Vulcan ships - all the hundreds of thousands of troops were in the dozens of cloaked warbirds that easily penetrated Vulcan space thanks to all the noise that the old Vulcan rust buckets made. This plan failed. This is also rather unlikely to be true, because we get no good reason for why the Romulans would admit defeat here; in this model, they clearly had the upper hand with their cloaked fleet, and could (and should) easily have destroyed the E-D and the other ships defending Vulcan.

3) The plan was to pretend that Romulus was about to conquer Vulcan. To this end, Romulan peaceniks were invited to board those old Vulcan ships, and these peace envoys were then shipped to Vulcan while Romulus allowed Ambassador Spock to spread the false rumor that an invasion was ongoing. The peaceniks were then executed in a maneuver that made every UFP adversary gasp in awe and respect of Romulan audacity (plus snicker at the stupidity of Starfleet). Since this is the exact opposite of what the Romulans told our heroes before letting them escape, it's also the one the most likely to be true.

For all the alternatives, we can also freely speculate on how many Vulcans would gladly welcome their new Romulan overlords and be happy to get rid of Federation scum.

Timo Saloniemi

Dale Sams April 24 2013 03:18 PM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
I took 'entrenched' to mean 2,000 soldiers infiltrated Vulcan society. Imagine if 2,000 perfect-English speaking Germans descended on the coasts in WW2. The few that did come over could have done a lot of damage if they hadn't of been given up.

But overall, I agree with you and think the above is just my fanwank to make it work.

sonak April 24 2013 04:17 PM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
yes it was a stupid plan.

xvicente April 26 2013 01:53 PM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
Quote:

t_smitts wrote: (Post 7993411)
Where do people get this idea that Vulcans are all pacifists? Was Spock a pacifist? Was Tuvok (a starship's chief of security) a pacifist? Was Captain Solok from "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"? Was Sakonna from "The Maquis"? Was the Saratoga's captain?

Yes, Surak, as we saw him in "The Savage Curtain" was clearly a pacifist (and bear in mind that was Spock's perception of Surak, not necessarily exactly who he was, as we saw with Kahless), but that doesn't mean the entire race is bound to dealing with an invasion force Ghandi-style.

(Oh, great, now I'm picturing Ghandi doing that viral video dance). :lol:

Seen as Surak was introduced (by Spock) as "The father of Vulcan philosophy", and in Star Trek Vulcan (as every other race) is a Planet of the Hats, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats
it is safe to assume all Vulcans are pacifist.

That doesn't mean they would go all "Ghandi-Style" :D and do nothing when the Romulans attacked. Spock was capable of violence, given no other logic options. (and in cases like spores, atavachrons, ponfarrs, etc :rommie:)

But they would absolutely not cooperate, and with billions of Vucans not acknowledging they were conquered, probably the 2000 Romulan soldiers would kill Vulcans until they got bored then die of frustration.

xvicente April 26 2013 02:13 PM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
Quote:

t_smitts wrote: (Post 7993411)
Where do people get this idea that Vulcans are all pacifists? Was Spock a pacifist? Was Tuvok (a starship's chief of security) a pacifist?

Tuvok was the perfect choice for the job. He got things done with minimal mess. Compare hot-headed Tasha Yar.

Quote:

Was the Saratoga's captain?
I thought the Saratoga's captain was a black (human) woman?

[edit] oh, the other Saratoga :p

Turbo April 26 2013 02:49 PM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
Quote:

Dale Sams wrote: (Post 7994881)
I took 'entrenched' to mean 2,000 soldiers infiltrated Vulcan society. Imagine if 2,000 perfect-English speaking Germans descended on the coasts in WW2. The few that did come over could have done a lot of damage if they hadn't of been given up.

But overall, I agree with you and think the above is just my fanwank to make it work.

Hadn't thought of that one before. It makes more sense than seizing strategic positions. Hurm.
Quote:

Anwar wrote: (Post 7993129)
I fully believe in the theory that the Romulan High Command only OK-ed this plan to set up Sela to be foiled so they'd have a reason to get rid of her once and for all.

But this makes so much more sense. :p

MNM April 27 2013 01:23 AM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 7993456)
And people wonder why I dislike time travel episodes in general.

No they dont dude...

R. Star April 27 2013 01:32 AM

Re: Commander Sela's insanely stupid plan to conquer Vulcan
 
Quote:

MNM wrote: (Post 8007913)
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 7993456)
And people wonder why I dislike time travel episodes in general.

No they dont dude...

How clever. Did you have a point to make?


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