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WesleysDisciple March 28 2013 12:15 AM

Was Sisko a Javert
 
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet didd, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Eddington made teh comparison and I have to admit reading les miserables last few weeks I find it compelling.

Admiral_Sisko March 28 2013 01:07 AM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Quote:

WesleysDisciple wrote: (Post 7861105)
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet didd, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Eddington made teh comparison and I have to admit reading les miserables last few weeks I find it compelling.

I don't think so. Jean Valjean was imprisoned because he stole a loaf of bread. Javert hunted him because he believed that all people were either law breakers or law abiders, and that it was impossible for one to change once he became one or the other.

Valjean was a different person after leaving prison. He became the mayor of Vigo and spent his life helping other people, including the child born out of wedlock to a prostitute.

Eddington supported a group of people who knowingly broke away from the Federation, and instead of negotiating a separate piece to avoid further bloodshed, took up arms against the Cardassians, precipitating a conflict that eventually dragged in the Federation, leading to the loss or damage of several Starfleet vessels.

Sisko hunted Eddington because he took the latter's betrayal of his command personally. It's possible that Eddington's defection reminded Sisko of his ruined friendship with Cal Hudson, who later died during a skirmish with the Cardassians. Sisko was certainly obsessed with Eddington, but his obsession was due to a desire for vengence, not because he rigidly believed that Eddington was incapable of reform.

In fact, when Sisko tried to convince Eddington to help him disarm the missles rumored to be targeting Cardassia, he offered him a full pardon in return for his sevice, going so far as to say that Eddington could do whatever he wanted once his assignment was over, something Javert would never had accepted.

R. Star March 28 2013 01:12 AM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Um one there was a negotiated peace... the Cardassians were violating it day by day when they were killing the Maquis colonists and the Federation did nothing. I can't blame them at all for taking up arms.

As for the Javert comment, the parallels are there, but mainly I think Eddington just kept pushing it to get under Sisko's skin more than anything else.

indolover March 28 2013 02:00 AM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
I never understood Sisko's obsession. Seemed it was more like ego.

He should have left it to the JAG officer for that sector lol.. Also, I liked how Avery Brooks pronounced Micheal Eddington "Mike-ul Eddingtun" lo...

Gotham Central March 28 2013 02:41 AM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Sisko was personally pissed at Eddington, not the Maquis personally. If anything Sisko wanted the Maquis to come in from the cold. That was NOT Javert's attitude. Javert would never have been able to forgive, let alone love Cassidy. Javert could never have tolerated having officers like Dax or Kira serving under him let alone Odo...who's sense of justice trumps his view of the law. Hell...Sisko tolerated Quark and Garak.

Sisko's issue with Eddington was personal. Not only did he betray Starfleet, he used and betrayed Sisko's trust.

lurok March 28 2013 03:16 AM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
No. But a better singer than Crowe.

SoM March 28 2013 04:52 AM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Quote:

WesleysDisciple wrote: (Post 7861105)
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.

Timo March 28 2013 03:06 PM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
We never heard of a ban or other expression of disapproval over the use of chemical weapons. Probably those are considered much more humane than, say, kinetic weapons or death rays, and would be the preferred sort if not for the pesky opponents so often donning gas masks or gas-stopping shields.

What I found more surprising and perhaps objectionable was the introduction of the concept of a "Maquis planet". Until this episode, the Maquis had been a group operating out of certain colony worlds but certainly not forming any major part of the population - or in other words, the inhabitants had expressed no formal association with the movement. The sudden emergence of "Maquis planets" makes it much easier to use global-scale weapons, which is a great convenience in terms of drama, Starfleet politics and Sisko's tactics alike...

Quote:

Jean Valjean was imprisoned because he stole a loaf of bread.
...Whereas Eddington stole the whole goddamn bakery, leaving millions starving, all so that he could bake weapons for himself.

Timo Saloniemi

R. Star March 28 2013 06:28 PM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Quote:

SoM wrote: (Post 7862464)
Quote:

WesleysDisciple wrote: (Post 7861105)
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.

Just picture a nuclear sub captain deciding to nuke an Arabian village suspected of harboring an Al Qaida cell without even bothering to make a phonecall first. ;)

Hartzilla2007 March 28 2013 07:11 PM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 7865029)
Quote:

SoM wrote: (Post 7862464)
Quote:

WesleysDisciple wrote: (Post 7861105)
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.

Just picture a nuclear sub captain deciding to nuke an Arabian village suspected of harboring an Al Qaida cell without even bothering to make a phonecall first. ;)

Yeah but wouldn't it actually be a case where it was an Al Qaida village not a cell and this would be after they started using nukes in terrorist attacks?

Timo March 28 2013 07:41 PM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Only if you replace "nukes" with "tear gas" for both sides...

Timo Saloniemi

TheRoyalFamily March 30 2013 07:23 PM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Quote:

SoM wrote: (Post 7862464)
Quote:

WesleysDisciple wrote: (Post 7861105)
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.

Starfleet cut Sisko's pay by 75% for several years :p

But really:

1. Noone was hurt - didn't even cause any environmental issues, most likely, as the Cardies from the planet Eddington gassed just moved there. Sure, it rendered the planet uninhabitable to human life, but the humans there had plenty of time to evacuate (and get a new world completely free from Cardassian occupation in the future!).

2. It most likely helped solidify Federation-Cardassian relations. Starfleet was pretty lax about doing stuff about the Maquis until Eddington's betrayal, which no doubt pissed the Cardassians off some, even with the newer, nicer civilian government. If the Cardies had the resources to divert from the Klingon effort, do you think they wouldn't have done the exact same thing Sisko did? If they didn't, it would be because they glassed the human colony instead of merely forcing them off the planet. The Cardassians finally saw a Starfleet captain with what it took to fight the Maquis.

3. Starfleet culture and morals aren't the same as Western 20-21st century morals - the Prime Directive is proof enough of that. Remember, Starfleet isn't just humans, so it makes sense that they might do things somewhat differently. And they do, even if it doesn't agree with how Our Heroes (with whom the audience is supposed to identify) view things - which we see often enough as well. Maybe some Vulcan JAG officer reviewing the case thought Sisko's actions were logical and justified, and dismissed the charges.

JirinPanthosa March 31 2013 03:08 AM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Sisko did take Eddington's betrayal too personally and as a bruise to his ego but I don't think he stepped over the line. And Eddington's delusions of picaresque grandeur were really just as bad and way more creepy.

Let's also remember that nobody died when Sisko gassed the planet, and he was completely sure Eddington would continue to do it to Cardassian planets.

R. Star March 31 2013 05:39 AM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Quote:

JirinPanthosa wrote: (Post 7876309)
Sisko did take Eddington's betrayal too personally and as a bruise to his ego but I don't think he stepped over the line. And Eddington's delusions of picaresque grandeur were really just as bad and way more creepy.

Let's also remember that nobody died when Sisko gassed the planet, and he was completely sure Eddington would continue to do it to Cardassian planets.

You honestly think that a planet with thousands, if not millions of people, can be evacuated by a terrorist group that doesn't even have enough ships to fight their enemies in an open battle in the window of an hour? We couldn't even evacuate New Orleans with a week's foreknowledge of Katrina.

indolover March 31 2013 05:20 PM

Re: Was Sisko a Javert
 
Quote:

TheRoyalFamily wrote: (Post 7874791)
Quote:

SoM wrote: (Post 7862464)
Quote:

WesleysDisciple wrote: (Post 7861105)
did Sisko become a Javert, in His prosecution of the maquis, it seemed to me the entirety of starfleet did, might just be because I found myself ACTIVELY ROOTING for the alleged "bad guys"

Well, personally at least, I never got why Starfleet apparently never batted an eyelid at Sisko's use of a chemical weapon on the Maquis planet.

Starfleet cut Sisko's pay by 75% for several years :p

But really:

1. Noone was hurt - didn't even cause any environmental issues, most likely, as the Cardies from the planet Eddington gassed just moved there. Sure, it rendered the planet uninhabitable to human life, but the humans there had plenty of time to evacuate (and get a new world completely free from Cardassian occupation in the future!).

2. It most likely helped solidify Federation-Cardassian relations. Starfleet was pretty lax about doing stuff about the Maquis until Eddington's betrayal, which no doubt pissed the Cardassians off some, even with the newer, nicer civilian government. If the Cardies had the resources to divert from the Klingon effort, do you think they wouldn't have done the exact same thing Sisko did? If they didn't, it would be because they glassed the human colony instead of merely forcing them off the planet. The Cardassians finally saw a Starfleet captain with what it took to fight the Maquis.

3. Starfleet culture and morals aren't the same as Western 20-21st century morals - the Prime Directive is proof enough of that. Remember, Starfleet isn't just humans, so it makes sense that they might do things somewhat differently. And they do, even if it doesn't agree with how Our Heroes (with whom the audience is supposed to identify) view things - which we see often enough as well. Maybe some Vulcan JAG officer reviewing the case thought Sisko's actions were logical and justified, and dismissed the charges.

Yeah, so Starfleet has no general guidelines in applying legislation. Just like today, it's standard legal practice to arbitrarily apply precedent and guidelines.


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