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-   -   When Sisko met the Prophets (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=207280)

James T. Vader March 26 2013 02:18 AM

When Sisko met the Prophets
 
So I’m trying to wrap my head around Sisko’s relationship with the Prophets. When he met them in Emissary they didn’t know who or what he was. So does that mean at the exact moment he meant them, since the Prophets don’t exist in normal linear time, they said , “hey we should make this guy,” and Sarah immediately went to Earth and met Grandpa Joe? And then immediately buried the Orb of the Emissary on Tyree?

R. Star April 1 2013 11:36 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

James T. Vader wrote: (Post 7851553)
So I’m trying to wrap my head around Sisko’s relationship with the Prophets. When he met them in Emissary they didn’t know who or what he was. So does that mean at the exact moment he meant them, since the Prophets don’t exist in normal linear time, they said , “hey we should make this guy,” and Sarah immediately went to Earth and met Grandpa Joe? And then immediately buried the Orb of the Emissary on Tyree?

The pilot really is the biggest flaw with the whole series in regards to Sisko's relationship with the Prophets.

Some will argue that it's as you say, they met him, then immediately went back in time(or whatever) to conceive him in their image. Which makes zero sense being Sarah Sisko was stated to have had no interest in Grandpa Joe and left him as soon as she could. If Sisko's "mama" the woman who raised him birthed him before he met the Prophets... it wouldn't have been Sisko. You can't meet someone then conceive him afterward time linearness or not.

Others will say the first encounter was strictly for Sisko's benefit so he could perceive them as aliens instead of as gods intent on using him for their purposes, which I'll lean towards since it fits the facts at least even if it's obviously apology material after the fact.

dub April 1 2013 11:54 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
My view (also probably under the category of "DS9 apologetics") would be because the Prophets had chosen Sisko as the emissary and they needed him to stick around and fulfill his role for them. Sisko had requested a move back to earth at the earliest opportunity. After his deep discussion with the prophets about time, the past, humanity, emotions and existence, Sisko did a 180 and not only decided to stay at DS9 but was absolutely sure in his decision. As a result, he indeed "completed his task" as the emissary.

tighr April 2 2013 12:04 AM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

James T. Vader wrote: (Post 7851553)
So I’m trying to wrap my head around Sisko’s relationship with the Prophets. When he met them in Emissary they didn’t know who or what he was. So does that mean at the exact moment he meant them, since the Prophets don’t exist in normal linear time, they said , “hey we should make this guy,” and Sarah immediately went to Earth and met Grandpa Joe? And then immediately buried the Orb of the Emissary on Tyree?

There's no "exact moment" for the Prophets to make that decision, because they don't experience linear time. Since they are supposed to transcend our understanding of time, it's impossible to describe what they did in a way that we can understand, but it is certainly possible form their point of view that meeting Sisko in the wormhole is cause of them playing a part in his birth. As transcendent beings, they have the ability to influence cause and effect in strange ways.

The Pah'wraiths seemingly lost the ability to experience time non-linearly when they were expelled, which would explain why they try to fight the Prophets. If they knew they were destined to fail, they probably wouldn't have even bothered.

indolover April 2 2013 04:51 AM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
I never understood why the Prophets chose a non-Bajoran to be their Emissary. If I were a Bajoran, I would want somebody who was like me or looked like me to be my religion's key link with my gods.

That said, it's possible that the Prophets were always anticipating him, and did not want to reveal the true nature of their relationship on the first meeting.

Melakon April 2 2013 03:22 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

indolover wrote: (Post 7886590)
That said, it's possible that the Prophets were always anticipating him, and did not want to reveal the true nature of their relationship on the first meeting.

But if the Prophets don't experience linear time, they can't anticipate anything. For them, everything must be happening simultaneously.

The whole concept sounds like some sort of temporal paradox.

Trek Survivor April 3 2013 01:59 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 7885120)
The pilot really is the biggest flaw with the whole series in regards to Sisko's relationship with the Prophets.

No way - the flaw is all the rubbish that came after with regards to Siski being part-prophet etc. "Emissary" is still one of the best episodes; it shouldn't be tainted by the nosedive in quality the series took post-season 5.

R. Star April 3 2013 03:39 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
That's your opinion. I suspect you'd be in the minority thinking the series "nose-dived" after season 5.

Timo April 3 2013 04:46 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

You can't meet someone then conceive him afterward time linearness or not.
Why not? Sounds like a needless and arbitrary limitation - time travel is all about looping and iterating and having effect precede cause, no matter how you look at it. It shouldn't be much of a trick for the Prophets to meet Sisko, and then decide that this is such a cool guy that on the next iteration he shall be divinely conceived.

Also, "not experiencing time linearly" doesn't mean "not experiencing time at all" let alone "experiencing everything at the same time". It just means time is experienced in some different, unspecified manner. Humans don't experience it "linearly", either: the subjective experience is at best "monotonic" in mathematical terms, but looks more like a roller-coaster ride than a neat line, what with time flying when you are having fun etc.

Asking why a human became "the" Emissary probably misses the point. Sisko was "an" Emissary; in other realities, there were competing individuals such as Akorem Laan, and at other timepoints of Sisko's own "timeline", there may have been further Emissaries, too. Things just happened to work out favorably when Sisko was holding the title, and the camera happened to be present, so we're a bit biased here.

Timo Saloniemi

indolover April 3 2013 04:51 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 7892920)
That's your opinion. I suspect you'd be in the minority thinking the series "nose-dived" after season 5.

Yeah... and opinions are deemed worthy in accordance with how many people believe it.

sonak April 3 2013 05:05 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

Trek Survivor wrote: (Post 7892584)
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 7885120)
The pilot really is the biggest flaw with the whole series in regards to Sisko's relationship with the Prophets.

No way - the flaw is all the rubbish that came after with regards to Siski being part-prophet etc. "Emissary" is still one of the best episodes; it shouldn't be tainted by the nosedive in quality the series took post-season 5.


this X 10

Retcons aside, the obvious reasons for this was that there was a totally different conception of the Prophets on the part of the writers in the beginning of the show to the way they were seen as the show ended. It was NOT a good change, and the whole "part-prophet" Sisko stuff, combined with the pah-wraith fire cave stuff got pretty silly.

indolover April 3 2013 05:37 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Well at least it lead to moments like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USqzdvKf4T8

Incidentally, that's the best Sisko/Prophets interaction IMO in the entire series. Yet for supposedly benevolent gods, the Prophets always seemed stern and cold lol..

DalekJim April 3 2013 05:52 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

Trek Survivor wrote: (Post 7892584)
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 7885120)
The pilot really is the biggest flaw with the whole series in regards to Sisko's relationship with the Prophets.

No way - the flaw is all the rubbish that came after with regards to Sisko being part-prophet etc.

Agreed. Emissary handles Sisko's relationship with the Prophets perfectly.

Quote:

"Emissary" is still one of the best episodes; it shouldn't be tainted by the nosedive in quality the series took post-season 5.
Disagree. Season 6 is excellent although the finale is when the arc starts to dumb itself down. Season 7 is when all this Prophets business goes in to NuBSG levels of dumb spirituality and handwaving.

R. Star April 3 2013 08:34 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
Quote:

indolover wrote: (Post 7893277)
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 7892920)
That's your opinion. I suspect you'd be in the minority thinking the series "nose-dived" after season 5.

Yeah... and opinions are deemed worthy in accordance with how many people believe it.

If that's what you think, knock yourself out. I didn't say it. :p

C.E. Evans April 3 2013 08:54 PM

Re: When Sisko met the Prophets
 
To me, the Wormhole aliens/Prophets exist in a unique state in which Time has no meaning. Past, present, future (and all the infinite different versions of them) are all one and the same. As a godlike (or unaffected) race, they never gave more than a passing interest in the affairs of lesser races in the same way most of us don't give much thought to an ant hill we might pass while driving down a road.

Sisko was the one that introduced the concept of Linear Time--of one event leading to another. Still being non-linear beings, though, the wormhole aliens were not subject to cause and effect themselves and could go back in time and create the cause of an effect they already experienced.

As linear beings, this doesn't make a lick of sense to us because it doesn't fit the way things work in our reality.


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