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-   -   How much time passes between TMP and TWoK? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=206770)

Amasov March 21 2013 03:36 PM

How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
I've heard it was upwards of ten years between the two in Trek's timeline. I always wondered this, mainly due to the fact that in TMP, the Enterprise, now refit, is shiny and brand-new, but by the time we get to The Wrath of Khan, and even later, The Search for Spock, the Enterprise is said to be old and with the Admiral even saying, "We feel her day is over."

I believe the old book, the Star Trek chronology is the one that mentioned the ten year gap. Was it really that long?

gottacook March 21 2013 04:06 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
The possibly radical opinion I've formed on this (in a thread last year sometime) is that the reset performed by TWoK in reaction to the unsuccessful aspects of TMP was so complete that there was no refit. That is, the TWoK Enterprise is simply the old TV-series Enterprise as it would have looked in the 1960s had there been the budget for it. This, of course, fits with the vessel being sufficiently used-up to be judged a candidate for the scrap heap in TSFS.

In this framework, all efforts to position TMP chronologically before TWoK are futile. Kirk isn't back at a desk job in TWoK after captaining (admiraling?) the Enterprise in TMP; why would he be? He wouldn't - in fact it's the same desk job at more or less the same time point. (The only relation to any past event is given as "15 years after 'Space Seed' ").

C.E. Evans March 21 2013 04:33 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
I tend to go with a fourteen-year estimate between TMP and TWOK, especially if we go with the idea that Kirk was just rounding off how much time passed since he last saw Kirk. Depending on what chronology you subscribe to, the original Enterprise was destroyed somewhere between 2282 and 2286 (VOY dates Kirk's 5-year mission between 2265-2270).

King Daniel Into Darkness March 21 2013 05:19 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
Off the top of my head and going strictly by (one interpretation of) evidence in episodes and movies...

TWoK: 2283 (the bottle of Romulan Ale)
-15 = 2268 for "Space Seed"

VOY: "Q2" says the 5 year mission ended in 2270, and TMP says it's been 2.5 years since the 5YM ended. So TMP = 2272. So it's roughly 11 years between TMP and TWoK.

Unless you count forward by 200 years from 1996 (cited in both "Space Seed" and WoK), which totally screws up everything...

gottacook is correct - some fans back in the early 80's believed that Wrath of Kahn completely ignored The Motion Picture. There is some debate on the subject in the old Best of Trek books. I personally see the "at peace with himself" Spock in WoK as a continuation of Spock's epiphany about emotion and feeling in TMP, but it could be argued that he reached this equilibrium by other means in a Trekverse where TMP didn't occur.

C.E. Evans March 21 2013 05:45 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
Quote:

King Daniel wrote: (Post 7829854)
VOY: "Q2" says the 5 year mission ended in 2270, and TMP says it's been 2.5 years since the 5YM ended. So TMP = 2272.

Or 2273 if the 5-year mission ended in the second half of 2270.

Amasov March 21 2013 07:06 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
I never considered the ignoring of the The Motion Picture. I didn't even know that was something people even considered.

It does seem strange, because once TMP ends, you get the sense that Kirk, now back in command, is taking the crew on a new five year mission and I'm well aware that the film's script is a much larger version of the abandoned Phase II pilot. Then you go straight into The Wrath of Khan and Kirk is, as he puts it, "old and worn out."

How he got from point A to point B was always a mystery to me.

But back on ignoring the first film thing. It does make sense in another way. I've seen Nimoy state many times over the years that there was always a singularity about it. Obviously, they were unaware they'd make any more films after that, but they treated it as if it were going to be one movie.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of it any specific moments in the other series, but are the events of the first film ever mentioned again? I know in that Voyager episode, Icheb seems like he's about to mention them -- though I think he only goes as far to say that Kirk regained command of the Enterprise, so that could also fit in with TWoK's ignoring of TMP.

Lance March 21 2013 07:11 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
Quote:

gottacook wrote: (Post 7829515)
The possibly radical opinion I've formed on this (in a thread last year sometime) is that the reset performed by TWoK in reaction to the unsuccessful aspects of TMP was so complete that there was no refit. That is, the TWoK Enterprise is simply the old TV-series Enterprise as it would have looked in the 1960s had there been the budget for it. This, of course, fits with the vessel being sufficiently used-up to be judged a candidate for the scrap heap in TSFS.

In this framework, all efforts to position TMP chronologically before TWoK are futile. Kirk isn't back at a desk job in TWoK after captaining (admiraling?) the Enterprise in TMP; why would he be? He wouldn't - in fact it's the same desk job at more or less the same time point. (The only relation to any past event is given as "15 years after 'Space Seed'").

I've gotta say, I've (slowly) come to the same opinion. Obviously we as fans have to find a way to try and ret-con events between the two so that they fit together, but stylistically it appears that Nick Meyer more or less worked from the blue-print that he was overwriting TMP, not trying to sequelize it. :)

Personally I'm not so sure there should be as big a gap as ten years from events between the two. But the complete change of uniforms is often seen as being a visual leap forward in time, and TMP was self-evidently only a couple of years after TOS. I think they'd have been much better to have acknowledged the passing of time better in TMP, instead of trying to pretend that practically no time at all had elapsed since the end of the original five year mission.

golddragon71 March 21 2013 07:25 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
The thing that threw me was when Harry Morrow said
"Jim! The Enterprise is 20 Years old! We feel her day is over."

Now I was never under any illusion that the Motion Picture was 20 years before Wrath of Khan as Space Seed only occurred (according to dialogue onscreen) as 15 year before!
The hiccup on this occurs when you consider that Space Seed occurred roughly a Month or so after the Menagerie in which Spock states that the Talos IV mission occurred 13 years prior to his abduction of the invalided Captain Pike and theft of the Enterprise.

In short, Wrath of Khan seems to indicate that there was no 11+ year Command of Captain Christopher Pike aboard the Enterprise.

Amasov March 21 2013 07:27 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
The fact that "II" is in the title is a clear indicator that it's at least acknowledging that it's the second movie. Whether this adds anything or not, I used to have a Leonard Maltin film guide where he reviewed, what seemed like, every movie in existence up to that point -- in this case, the one I had was from 1998. On his Star Trek II review, he mentions the film was released as "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan."

That's not true, is it? Was the "II" ever omitted at any point? I've seen the original trailers, posters, and TV spots and not once did I ever not see the "II" in there.

I wasn't born yet when the film was released, so. :D

Quote:

golddragon71 wrote: (Post 7830451)
The thing that threw me was when Harry Morrow said
"Jim! The Enterprise is 20 Years old! We feel her day is over."

That line used to throw me too. Ron Moore even mentions that in his Star Trek III commentary where he says something like, "Yeah, but we just got that Enterprise!" Obviously, Morrow must be taking the TOS years into account also, but even so, as Decker says in TMP, "This is an almost totally *new* Enterprise..."

I must say, by the way, I love these types of conversations. True Trekkies in perfect form right here, guys. We can almost rationalize ANYTHING. :lol:

C.E. Evans March 21 2013 07:39 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
Quote:

Lance wrote: (Post 7830400)
Quote:

gottacook wrote: (Post 7829515)
The possibly radical opinion I've formed on this (in a thread last year sometime) is that the reset performed by TWoK in reaction to the unsuccessful aspects of TMP was so complete that there was no refit. That is, the TWoK Enterprise is simply the old TV-series Enterprise as it would have looked in the 1960s had there been the budget for it. This, of course, fits with the vessel being sufficiently used-up to be judged a candidate for the scrap heap in TSFS.

In this framework, all efforts to position TMP chronologically before TWoK are futile. Kirk isn't back at a desk job in TWoK after captaining (admiraling?) the Enterprise in TMP; why would he be? He wouldn't - in fact it's the same desk job at more or less the same time point. (The only relation to any past event is given as "15 years after 'Space Seed'").

I've gotta say, I've (slowly) come to the same opinion. Obviously we as fans have to find a way to try and ret-con events between the two so that they fit together...

IMO, I don't think there's anything to retcon at all. TWOK takes place more than a decade in-universe after TMP. Now, we can conjecture what happened between the two films, but enough time passes that the idea that Kirk returned to the admiralty and Spock took over the Enterprise at some point prior to TWOK isn't that implausible a concept, and even seems a likely one.
Quote:

...but stylistically it appears that Nick Meyer more or less worked from the blue-print that he was overwriting TMP, not trying to sequelize it. :) .
There does seem to be a case to be made for that, especially given that the TWOK originally wasn't going to be numbered.
Quote:

Amasov wrote: (Post 7830460)
The fact that "II" is in the title is a clear indicator that it's at least acknowledging that it's the second movie. Whether this adds anything or not, I used to have a Leonard Maltin film guide where he reviewed, what seemed like, every movie in existence up to that point -- in this case, the one I had was from 1998. On his Star Trek II review, he mentions the film was released as "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan."

That's not true, is it? Was the "II" ever omitted at any point? I've seen the original trailers, posters, and TV spots and not once did I ever not see the "II" in there.

I wasn't born yet when the film was released, so. :D

The original print of the film wasn't numbered, but subsequent prints were.

Galileo7 March 21 2013 08:18 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
Quote:

C.E. Evans wrote: (Post 7830019)
Quote:

King Daniel wrote: (Post 7829854)
VOY: "Q2" says the 5 year mission ended in 2270, and TMP says it's been 2.5 years since the 5YM ended. So TMP = 2272.

Or 2273 if the 5-year mission ended in the second half of 2270.

Agree.:vulcan:

ssosmcin March 21 2013 09:27 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
Just because Kirk took a grade reduction to command the Enterprise to intercept V'Ger doesn't mean Starfleet Command would let him keep it. It's the military, you don't get to decide a hell of a lot and if they want to bench you, they're gonna goddam bench you. Something apparently came up in the space between V'Ger and Khan that made it vital Kirk retake the Admiral's stripes and go do something else. As much as Kirk loves being a starship captain, he is also a career officer. He accepted the promotion like you accept a suggestion made by your wife. Say no at your own peril, in this case, at the risk of a career. "You want to stay in the service, Kirk we need you to command a fleet, not just a vessel. Your skill and experience will be invaluable to Starfleet." He could have resigned and taken a merchant command, I suppose, but this idea of Kirk having a choice bugs me a bit.

When Kirk got "busted" back to Captain in TVH, that was a reward for saving the planet. He never made it a secret that he wanted to be a starship captain, so now he got his wish. "It's the least we could do," would be the attitude.

Just my take on it.

Borjis March 21 2013 09:32 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
I once had a dislike for TMP and was in denial of its existence but appreciated later in life.
It's now one of my top favorites.

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??

C.E. Evans March 21 2013 09:53 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
Quote:

ssosmcin wrote: (Post 7831015)
Something apparently came up in the space between V'Ger and Khan that made it vital Kirk retake the Admiral's stripes and go do something else.

I like the idea proposed by some that Kirk had become Commandant of the Academy, which would be the easiest way of explaining his presence there and on a cadet cruise (the idea also proposes that by the time of TWOK, the Enterprise was now a working cadet training vessel assigned to the Academy under Spock's command).
Quote:

Borjis wrote:
There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??

A small handful. Most of them simply have the Enterprise conducting the same kind of missions she did during TOS.

King Daniel Into Darkness March 21 2013 10:52 PM

Re: How much time passes between TMP and TWoK?
 
Quote:

Borjis wrote: (Post 7831048)
I once had a dislike for TMP and was in denial of its existence but appreciated later in life.
It's now one of my top favorites.

There are no novels between TMP and TWOK??

Several. Lists in this thread here.


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