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ZapBrannigan February 19 2013 05:25 AM

Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
In the Methuselah thread, Metryq mentioned that Spock was crossing a dangerous line by making Kirk forget Rayna. Come to think of it, Kirk's mind gets interfered with a lot in TOS.

In "The Enemy Within," he is literally of two minds-- on every subject. How does he bounce back from that?

"Turnabout Intruder" sends Kirk's mind where no man has gone before, but the whole thing is portrayed as not really messing with his consciousness. It just gets transplanted intact (which defies modern neurological theory, but what are you gonna do?).

My favorite "Kirk's Mind" event is when Helen Noel has Kirk in the mental treatment chair and she's re-writing the Christmas party. That was sexy. The fan-fic or R-rated version of that would be even better. What if Dr Adams was busy torturing somebody else (doctors keep us waiting all the time) and Helen had more time? Maybe she would have gone rogue and taken the session in the same direction as Adams himself did, for her own benefit. Hmm.

Other cases of messing with Kirk's mind merit discussion as well. :)

Tiberius February 19 2013 10:13 AM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
I always figured Spock was helping him to forget the PAIN she caused, not Rayna herself.

Metryq February 19 2013 11:37 AM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

Tiberius wrote: (Post 7702336)
I always figured Spock was helping him to forget the PAIN she caused, not Rayna herself.

"Damnit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us—the things that make us who we are. If we lost them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain."
—Kirk, STAR TREK V

Similarly, I think of all the mistakes I've made in life—the big and the small. Yet I would not undo any of them because I have learned from all of them. They are part of how I got "here."

T'Girl February 19 2013 07:21 PM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

ZapBrannigan wrote: (Post 7701874)
making Kirk forget Rayna

I don't believe Spock made Kirk completely forget about Rayna. But rather made Kirk forget the pain of her lose, her "death." Kirk would remember the events of that day, and in an abstract way that he loved Rayna.

But the pain would be gone.

:)

Tiberius February 19 2013 11:31 PM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

Metryq wrote: (Post 7702402)
Quote:

Tiberius wrote: (Post 7702336)
I always figured Spock was helping him to forget the PAIN she caused, not Rayna herself.

"Damnit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us—the things that make us who we are. If we lost them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain."
—Kirk, STAR TREK V

Similarly, I think of all the mistakes I've made in life—the big and the small. Yet I would not undo any of them because I have learned from all of them. They are part of how I got "here."

Oh, I agree, but if we assume that Spock is removing the actual memory of her, then the crime becomes so much worse.

heavy lids February 20 2013 03:14 AM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

Metryq wrote: (Post 7702402)
"Damnit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us—the things that make us who we are. If we lost them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain."
—Kirk, STAR TREK V

Best part of the movie. And so true.

ZapBrannigan February 20 2013 05:47 AM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
But Spock's act is still open to interpretation, because Kirk never mentions Rayna again. It's also unclear what if anything was reported to Star Fleet Command about Flint and Rayna.

Metryq February 20 2013 12:19 PM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

ZapBrannigan wrote: (Post 7706065)
But Spock's act is still open to interpretation, because Kirk never mentions Rayna again.

Previous TOS episodes rarely influenced later episodes. Any allusions were typically trivial, such as in "By Any Other Name" when Kirk says, "On Eminiar Seven, you were able to trick the guard by a Vulcan mind probe." That was shorthand for "move the story along." Yet in "By Any Other Name" no one became a god after passing through the barrier at the edge of the galaxy, nor did Starfleet benefit from the Kelvin modifications made to the ship's engines. The miracle spores from "This Side of Paradise" are never heard from again. Starfleet never made use of cloaking devices after "The Enterprise Incident." (Although Kirk did manage to make most of his crew believe that his mind was messed up.) Medusan symbiotes never appeared as helmsmen/navigators. The telekinesis from "Plato's Stepchildren" and so on.

In other news, "Specter of the Gun" is another episode that messes with Kirk's mind. What if Kirk had been a fan of some other period in history, or one of the others had been tapped for the virtual scenario? Kirk got a small taste of Talosian mind tinkering in "The Menagerie."

Seeing Finnegan and Ruth in "Shore Leave" might be regarded as a kind of mind messing, to say nothing of Kirk becoming Kirok in "The Paradise Syndrome." How about Elaan's tears? "The Mark of Gideon-prize"? "The Day of the Dove", "And the Children Shall Lead."

How many years is the average starship captain good for before he ends up in the same padded cell as Garth of Izar with a box of crayons?

ZapBrannigan February 20 2013 01:38 PM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Good points, Metryq. I think "The Paradise Syndrome" is a big one, and one that if given a gritty-realism approach would have gotten Kirk a desk job for a while, until HQ was sure his brain hadn't been fried. Luckily for STAR TREK, it was just Gerald Fried.

Greg Cox February 20 2013 04:49 PM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

ZapBrannigan wrote: (Post 7706065)
But Spock's act is still open to interpretation, because Kirk never mentions Rayna again. It's also unclear what if anything was reported to Star Fleet Command about Flint and Rayna.

He never mentions Edith Keeler or Miramanee or Lenore Karidian or Ariel Shaw or any of his other love interests again, either. I think we can assume that Spock didn't erase all those memories as well . . . . :)

Episodic TV shows of that era had short memories, especially where guest-stars were concerned.

TREK_GOD_1 February 20 2013 11:50 PM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

Metryq wrote: (Post 7706743)
Any allusions were typically trivial, such as in "By Any Other Name" when Kirk says, "On Eminiar Seven, you were able to trick the guard by a Vulcan mind probe." That was shorthand for "move the story along." Yet in "By Any Other Name" no one became a god after passing through the barrier at the edge of the galaxy

I thought it was a nice reference to WNMHGB--and Kirk quickly blurts it out ("Yes, I know. We've been there."), almost as if he did not care for the reminder.

Quote:

nor did Starfleet benefit from the Kelvin modifications made to the ship's engines. The miracle spores from "This Side of Paradise" are never heard from again. Starfleet never made use of cloaking devices after "The Enterprise Incident." (Although Kirk did manage to make most of his crew believe that his mind was messed up.) Medusan symbiotes never appeared as helmsmen/navigators. The telekinesis from "Plato's Stepchildren" and so on.
One can argue that the incidental nature of TOS Starfleet missions meant many of the inventions or aliens would not be seen again. Starfleet, after all, is a busy organization with a primary fucntion having little to do with developing technological or biological innovations beyond first contact, so other branches of the Federeration may step in to handle the rest.

EnsignHarper February 21 2013 02:22 AM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
The non-canon novel, Strangers From the Sky, makes use of this very subject.

For those who have never read it, SFTS deals with Admiral Kirk, in that nebulous time between ST:TMP and TWOK, reading a 'current' hot novel of the time, starts having nightmares after reading it. More specifically, the nightmares have him realistically involved in the events of the 'novel - which is about a accidental....and unofficial first contact with the Vulcans, which supposedly happened 200 years prior to his present, and a 100 years prior to the 'official' first human/Vulcan contact. The nightmares frighten Kirk so much, he actually 'runs away' from his duties as Admiral, in search of spiritual relief. Meanwhile, Spock is with the ENT on a training cruise, has read the book, and is having basically the same problem.

They eventually find Kirk, and have him 'under observation'. The psychiatrist observing him happens to mention the many, many times Kirk's mind has had things happen to it - mind melds, takeovers, body switching, etc. She is about to send Kirk to Elba II - as a patient, when Spock shows up - with the same symptoms.

A book worth looking up! :)

ZapBrannigan February 21 2013 08:47 AM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

EnsignHarper wrote: (Post 7709629)
The non-canon novel, Strangers From the Sky, makes use of this very subject.

For those who have never read it, SFTS deals with Admiral Kirk, in that nebulous time between ST:TMP and TWOK, reading a 'current' hot novel of the time, starts having nightmares after reading it. More specifically, the nightmares have him realistically involved in the events of the 'novel - which is about a accidental....and unofficial first contact with the Vulcans, which supposedly happened 200 years prior to his present, and a 100 years prior to the 'official' first human/Vulcan contact. The nightmares frighten Kirk so much, he actually 'runs away' from his duties as Admiral, in search of spiritual relief. Meanwhile, Spock is with the ENT on a training cruise, has read the book, and is having basically the same problem.

They eventually find Kirk, and have him 'under observation'. The psychiatrist observing him happens to mention the many, many times Kirk's mind has had things happen to it - mind melds, takeovers, body switching, etc. She is about to send Kirk to Elba II - as a patient, when Spock shows up - with the same symptoms.

A book worth looking up! :)

I never heard of that one; sounds interesting.

If we're bringing in non-canon material, I could cite a fondly remembered short story called "Mind Sifter" in STAR TREK: THE NEW VOYAGES (1976). Kirk's brain takes a wallop in that one, too.

ZapBrannigan February 21 2013 08:54 AM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 7707358)
He never mentions Edith Keeler or Miramanee or Lenore Karidian or Ariel Shaw or any of his other love interests again, either. I think we can assume that Spock didn't erase all those memories as well . . . . :)

Well, it turns out Spock got a little carried away that night, like when you saw down one leg of a wobbly table, take a little too much off, and start shortening the other legs... By morning, Kirk was ready to repeat kindergarten and Spock knew he was in some deep trouble. "Cancel all our appointments, Miss Uhura."

Greg Cox February 21 2013 08:36 PM

Re: Messing with Kirk's Mind
 
This sort of mind-warping seems to be an occupational hazard of being a Starship captain. Between "The Inner Light," his Borg transformation, being temporarily turned into a kid, his Nexus hallucination, and his torture at the hands of the Gul Madred, Picard probably needs some seriously psychological counseling, too.

And let's not forget Sisko and his "Benny Russell" persona . . ..


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