The Trek BBS

The Trek BBS (http://www.trekbbs.com/index.php)
-   Star Trek - Original Series (http://www.trekbbs.com/forumdisplay.php?f=38)
-   -   The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=203743)

MarsWeeps February 17 2013 07:23 PM

The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
After recently watching the re-mastered version of The Doomsday Machine, it reminded me of something that I always wondered about...why weren't any photon torpedoes used? Since it was obvious they could not penetrate the outer hull with phasers, didn't anyone think of shooting a few torpedoes "right down its throat?"

I'm sure the writers would simply have the DM gobble them up like M&M's but it was interesting that they weren't even mentioned. For that matter, why not aim the phasers "down its throat?"

Was it because the torpedoes weren't introduced until a later episode?

CorporalCaptain February 17 2013 07:28 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
No, photon torpedoes were around since first season.

There's no good answer in-universe for why they didn't use them at all.

In the end, it's not important to the story, anyway; they wouldn't have worked.

Timo February 17 2013 07:37 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
It's pretty easy to argue in retrospect that photon torpedoes would have been suspect because the DDM had already demonstrated the ability to "neutralize" antimatter.

Of course, back then, we didn't know that photon torpedoes relied on antimatter, but nowadays it's pretty much a given. Or at least we can rest assured that most photon torpedoes have antimatter warheads, even if the name just possibly might refer to something else than the warhead type.

Quote:

For that matter, why not aim the phasers "down its throat?"
Decker might have decided that approaching the beast from the front would be an absolutely idiotic idea...

Timo Saloniemi

BillJ February 17 2013 07:44 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
They ran out and wouldn't get more until Tuesday?

MarsWeeps February 17 2013 07:51 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7695130)
Quote:

For that matter, why not aim the phasers "down its throat?"
Decker might have decided that approaching the beast from the front would be an absolutely idiotic idea...

Much less idiotic than thinking that the phasers would have any effect on a solid neutronium hull. Besides, with Decker in command of the Enterprise, they were already being pulled into the mouth of the DD. Of course, phasers were probably conveniently off line at that time.

Timo February 17 2013 07:51 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
Quote:

They ran out and wouldn't get more until Tuesday?
Yup, again possible in retrospect. But I'm not sure the concept of running out of photon torpedoes would have been invented at that point yet, either... Them being physical projectiles in casings is a ST2-onwards thing, although of course retroactively enforced on TOS by ENT.

Timo Saloniemi

Mr.AtoZ February 18 2013 12:47 AM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
It could very well have been that at the time the writers crafted the Doomsday Machine story, photon torpedoes weren't widely used in the series. Thus they didn't think of it and at the time, it just didn't dawn upon Roddenberry and others. I can't recall, but was there ever an episode where the Enterprise employed a thermonuclear warhead? In Balance of Terror, the Romulans dumped one overboard. It would have been an interesting idea for the ship to send one down the maw of the Doomsday Machine. The vessel would probably detect just a crumb of matter and go about ingesting it without realizing the danger. The same principle with the Constellation being ingested without the engine overload being detected.

blssdwlf February 18 2013 03:45 AM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
I think that photon torpedoes were off the table because of the antimatter damping field prevented their use. As to why didn't they fire phasers down the throat, we'll probably never know. Although, we can't rule out that Decker didn't try it earlier with the Constellation. He said they fought at long-range and if that is true, then a phaser hit on a pursuing Doomsday Machine would've been a "down the throat" shot.

Redfern February 18 2013 04:15 AM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
In the novelization by James Blish, phasers were fired into the "maw" only to have the beams "bounce around" inside until their energy was expended.

I know; I know, "not canon!" But it's the closest thing we have to an answer. Maybe such a sequence was intended but for one reason or another (script running over time, not enough money or time to do the added effects) the idea was "cut".

Sincerely,

Bill

Robert Comsol February 18 2013 11:24 AM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
Quote:

blssdwlf wrote: (Post 7697200)
I think that photon torpedoes were off the table because of the antimatter damping field prevented their use.

That sounds like a good theory but would that not have also incapacitated the Enterprise to make use of her matter-antimatter energy ("warp power")? ;)

If that thing was capable to "deactivate" the onboard antimatter of the Constellation, we could assume it did the same with the Enterprise which then relied entirely on energizer power (or fusion power, IMHO).

Alternately, photon torpedos essentially provide a devastating and diffuse blast while the phasers have properties of a cutting beam (same story with "The Paradise Syndriome", no use of photon torpedos either). I was under the impression they tried to cut through the hull of the planet killer.

But even then, of course, firing some photon torpedos into the throat of the planet killer would have surely provided a yield of over a 100 megatons, so I do believe their antimatter had been rendered inert.

While the tactical approach doesn't seem to make a lot of sense in-universe, I believe we are looking at another fine example of an attempt to implement the "Hornblower Effect" into a Star Trek story.
Eventually, the Constellation's dead hull is used as a fire ship to destroy an enemy's vessel.

Bob

Timo February 18 2013 12:24 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
From the POV of the DDM, antimatter would be easy to detect and declare either categorically inedible or at least categorically threatening. Things like fusion powerplants, or stores of chemicals with the potential to release destructive energies if combined, would be much more ambiguous, and probably edible as such - unless a malevolent power turned them into weapons at the last second.

Was the DDM a weapon? It did not seem to pursue tactical goals, such as eliminating threats. It just demolished and ate, and growled at those who attempted to intervene. If the DDM was merely a reverse terraforming tool of sorts, it would not systematically and strategically act against potential threats, and would have no particular reason to scan for devious hidden bombs.

The TOS practices on photon torpedo use warrant some examination, too. In "Arena", torpedoes were used against a target at extreme range, while the landing party fought at long ranges using a possibly similar weapon that apparently posed a great risk to the user in closer combat. In "The Changeling", a single torpedo was a seeking precision weapon used against a nearby but extremely small target. In "Elaan of Troyius", a spread of torpedoes was effective at medium range in a warp fight (or possibly a warp-impulse-warp strafing fight), while in "Journey to Babel", it was ineffective at close range.

This spectrum of uses or attempted uses would seem to rule out most of the tactical limitations we might imagine applying to the "DDM" situation. The maw of the DDM would not be too close ("Journey to Babel"), too small and difficult to hit ("The Changeling"), or too distant ("Arena").

Then again, if torpedoes are the preferred weapon in long range or high speed fights, "Arena" and TNG era style, it would make sense for Decker to have tried them out in his reputed initial long range engagement. If they proved useless there, Decker would not try and use them when commanding the Enterprise, either.

Timo Saloniemi

MarsWeeps February 18 2013 12:32 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7698313)
Then again, if torpedoes are the preferred weapon in long range or high speed fights, "Arena" and TNG era style, it would make sense for Decker to have tried them out in his reputed initial long range engagement. If they proved useless there, Decker would not try and use them when commanding the Enterprise, either.

Phasers proved useless on the Constellation, both banks were drained and yet Decker had no problem trying to use them on the Enterprise.

Timo February 18 2013 12:44 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
There are only so many ways to use photon torpedoes, especially if they suffer from TNG style proximity limitations; Decker could have exhausted the options in his long range experimentation already. In contrast, there could be plenty of phaser tricks up Decker's sleeves yet, considering the demonstrated versatility of that weapon.

Timo Saloniemi

blssdwlf February 18 2013 03:05 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
Quote:

MarsWeeps wrote: (Post 7698328)
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7698313)
Then again, if torpedoes are the preferred weapon in long range or high speed fights, "Arena" and TNG era style, it would make sense for Decker to have tried them out in his reputed initial long range engagement. If they proved useless there, Decker would not try and use them when commanding the Enterprise, either.

Phasers proved useless on the Constellation, both banks were drained and yet Decker had no problem trying to use them on the Enterprise.

DECKER: I made a mistake then. We were too far away. This time I'm going to hit it with full phasers at point-blank range.
Quote:

Robert Comsol wrote:
That sounds like a good theory but would that not have also incapacitated the Enterprise to make use of her matter-antimatter energy ("warp power")? ;)

I think that's what eventually gets the Enterprise. As she closed, her shields were already under some kind of load despite not being directly fired upon yet. Once the shields were drained the antimatter probably would've been deactivated as well. A photon torpedo probably would've been drained sooner.
SULU: Closing fast.
SPOCK: Deflector shields at full power. They can't take much more of this.
DECKER: Helmsman, hold your course. Stand by all phaser banks.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir.
SPOCK: Deflectors holding, but weakening. We must retreat, Commodore. The energy drain...

Garrovick February 18 2013 04:09 PM

Re: The Doomsday Machine - why no photon torpodoes?
 
Since there was never any explicit discussion about the status of Constellation's photon torpedoes, we don't really know for sure what all Decker did or didn't do with them.

Perhaps, during his initial attack on the machine, the Constellation's torpedoes were completely ineffective, but maybe one of the phaser hits got lucky and did some kind of extremely minor damage to the machine - something like knocking off some minor piece of unrelated debris off the neutronium hull or something. So Decker may have had an unrealistic hope that phasers might have more of a chance than a torpedo, which is why he didn't launch any from Enterprise.

But, I do think everything Decker did against the machine from Enterprise has to also be looked at in light of the fact that he really wasn't mentally fit for command and shouldn't have been in the center seat anyway, and therefore all of his decisions, including not using the photons and not trying for a "down-the-throat" shot (not to mention flying into the machine in a shuttle), were all suspect.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:58 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.