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JediKnightButler February 9 2013 09:22 PM

Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
I don't know if this has come up before but- given that INS was set during the Dominion War- how/why would the Federation Council agree to any kind of joint projects with the Son'a knowing, as Riker reveals during an early scene, the Son'a are one of the Dominion's primary suppliers or source of Ketracel-White for the Jem'Hadar in AQ? Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow? Did the Son'a ever appear (or were they ever even mentioned) in DS9? I'm on S7 of DS9 and never heard them brought up.......yet.
:confused:

Admiral_Sisko February 9 2013 10:30 PM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 7661878)
I don't know if this has come up before but- given that INS was set during the Dominion War- how/why would the Federation Council agree to any kind of joint projects with the Son'a knowing, as Riker reveals during an early scene, the Son'a are one of the Dominion's primary suppliers or source of Ketracel-White for the Jem'Hadar in AQ? Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow? Did the Son'a ever appear (or were they ever even mentioned) in DS9. I'm on S7 of DS9 and never heard them brought up.......yet.
:confused:

1. Picard was skeptical of the idea of collaboration and voiced his concerns to Admiral Dougherty, to which the latter replied, "Warp drive transformed a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire. We can handle the Son'a." Clearly, the Federation was desperate, but they also believed that any threat posed by the Son'a was less significant than what they were already contending with by fighting the Dominion.

2. There's a brief exchange between Weyoun and Damar about diverting Cardassian troops to protect a Son'a outpost during the seventh season, so their presence is referenced, however briefly.

Therin of Andor February 10 2013 01:16 AM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Agree to help the Son'a with a project to get to know them better, develop trust, and then coerce them to stem the flow of Ketracel White?

JediKnightButler February 10 2013 01:36 AM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 7662922)
Agree to help the Son'a with a project to get to know them better, develop trust, and then coerce them to stem the flow of Ketracel White?

Hadn't thought of it that but it does make sense. Attract more flies with honey, so they say...........

M.A.C.O. February 11 2013 02:33 AM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 7661878)
I don't know if this has come up before but- given that INS was set during the Dominion War- how/why would the Federation Council agree to any kind of joint projects with the Son'a knowing, as Riker reveals during an early scene, the Son'a are one of the Dominion's primary suppliers or source of Ketracel-White for the Jem'Hadar in AQ? Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow? Did the Son'a ever appear (or were they ever even mentioned) in DS9? I'm on S7 of DS9 and never heard them brought up.......yet.
:confused:

Weyoun references the Son'a in the DS9 episode 7X17 Penumbra.

Yeah INS doesn't have a stardate so you can be flexible with when it is set. I like to think INS happens after the Dominion War ends. So it doesn't completely undermine how "desperate" the war was as we see and is stated repeatedly on DS9.

By undermine I mean the presentation as it relates to TNG and DS9 during that time period. Maybe the war was a nightmare for Sisko and the gang but for Picard and crew they were probably having a much easier time during the war.

You look at the most notable Dominion War episodes "A Time To Stand, Rocks and Shoals, Sons and Daughters, Behind the Lines, Favor The Bold, Sacrifice of Angels, The Siege of AR-558, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, The Changing Face of Evil, and What You Leave Behind" You see the Federation is on the robes quite a lot from the DS9 point of view.

You watch INS and you hear both Picard and Ru'afo talk about the Dominion War as some thing that's in the past. Even Worf who was in many Dominion encounters seems to be more than chipper himself in INS. That's not to suggest the ENT-E had it easy. The sovereign class is a juggernaunt by herself, and we know the Dominion attacked Earth, Betazad, and Vulcan. It's possible they may have led campaigns against other Federation core worlds like Andoria, Tellar, Kronos etc. DS9 was just so damn localized to it's own little niche in the quadrant that any reference to a planet outside Bajor or Cardassia was a very rare occurence. Not to mention other ships fighting the war.

Oso Blanco February 11 2013 06:29 AM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 7667467)
Yeah INS doesn't have a stardate so you can be flexible with when it is set. I like to think INS happens after the Dominion War ends.

I think it was meant to be set in the seventh season of DS9. Worf became Federation Ambassador on Kronos when DS9 ended, in Insurrection he is wearing a Starfleet uniform and Picard orders him to delay his return to DS9.

It really doesn't make any sense for the Enterprise to go on archeological research while the rest of the fleet was fighting the Dominion ... but the producers were afraid that the average moviegoer would be too stupid to understand that there was a war going on. The strange thing is that the war is being referenced in the movie several times, it could just as well have been a major part of it. Three lines of explanation for those who have never seen DS9 would have been enough. The biggest missed opportunity in Star Trek ever!

Elvira February 11 2013 07:12 AM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

Oso Blanco wrote: (Post 7668049)
It really doesn't make any sense for the Enterprise to go on archeological research while the rest of the fleet was fighting the Dominion

Unless the archaeological expedition on Hanoran Two had something to with the war effort. They were looking for something.

:)

tighr February 11 2013 08:25 AM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 7661878)
Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow?

The Federation was desperate for the technology the Son'a could promise. Harnessing the power of the planet to heal injuries and essentially extend life would be hugely beneficial to the war effort. It was a joint operation with the Son'a in which the Federation supplies the manpower and the funds, and the Son'a provide their technology. The fact that the Son'a also cooperated with the Dominion was of little consequence to their goal of obtaining the life preserving technology.

Lance February 11 2013 02:41 PM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

Oso Blanco wrote: (Post 7668049)
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 7667467)
Yeah INS doesn't have a stardate so you can be flexible with when it is set. I like to think INS happens after the Dominion War ends.

I think it was meant to be set in the seventh season of DS9. Worf became Federation Ambassador on Kronos when DS9 ended, in Insurrection he is wearing a Starfleet uniform and Picard orders him to delay his return to DS9.

I tend to agree, it's clearly meant to take place in DS9's season seven. Wasn't there going to be a mention of the recent death of Jadzia in an earlier draft of the story?

This all reminds me, back in 1999 our local television channels were still showing DS9 somewhere in Season Five, and the VHS releases were only a fraction further than that. I remember being terribly confused by a lot of what is mentioned about the DS9 side of the Dominion War in INS at the time (I do understand that it was contemporaneous to where DS9 was at in the US broadcasts).

sonak February 11 2013 05:22 PM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

tighr wrote: (Post 7668196)
Quote:

JediKnightButler wrote: (Post 7661878)
Seems like something that would be hard- if not impossible- for the Federation Council to simply ignore/overlook during a major war? Or was the Federation Council just REALLY that desperate by then? I'm wondering why they even thought to bring this up unless it was supposed to be important somehow?

The Federation was desperate for the technology the Son'a could promise. Harnessing the power of the planet to heal injuries and essentially extend life would be hugely beneficial to the war effort. It was a joint operation with the Son'a in which the Federation supplies the manpower and the funds, and the Son'a provide their technology. The fact that the Son'a also cooperated with the Dominion was of little consequence to their goal of obtaining the life preserving technology.


yep. I doubt they cared about the drug supply thing considering the benefits they were getting out of the arrangement. Well, the benefits they would have gotten had Picard not sabotaged the operation and turned the Son'a into outright allies of the Dominion rather than merely suppliers.

StewMc February 11 2013 10:02 PM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

Lance wrote: (Post 7668805)
I tend to agree, it's clearly meant to take place in DS9's season seven. Wasn't there going to be a mention of the recent death of Jadzia in an earlier draft of the story?

The early draft leaked online had Picard ask Worf how his bride was, to which he replied "A challenge". Presumably they just ditched any reference to Jadzia altogether after DS9 killed her off.

hayesc0 February 11 2013 10:36 PM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
it was during the war picard mentions it at the end of the movie its been said a million time should have been a dominion war movie

JediKnightButler February 13 2013 04:50 AM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 7667467)
Yeah INS doesn't have a stardate so you can be flexible with when it is set. I like to think INS happens after the Dominion War ends. So it doesn't completely undermine how "desperate" the war was as we see and is stated repeatedly on DS9.

By undermine I mean the presentation as it relates to TNG and DS9 during that time period. Maybe the war was a nightmare for Sisko and the gang but for Picard and crew they were probably having a much easier time during the war.

You look at the most notable Dominion War episodes "A Time To Stand, Rocks and Shoals, Sons and Daughters, Behind the Lines, Favor The Bold, Sacrifice of Angels, The Siege of AR-558, Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, The Changing Face of Evil, and What You Leave Behind" You see the Federation is on the robes quite a lot from the DS9 point of view.

You watch INS and you hear both Picard and Ru'afo talk about the Dominion War as some thing that's in the past. Even Worf who was in many Dominion encounters seems to be more than chipper himself in INS. That's not to suggest the ENT-E had it easy. The sovereign class is a juggernaunt by herself, and we know the Dominion attacked Earth, Betazad, and Vulcan. It's possible they may have led campaigns against other Federation core worlds like Andoria, Tellar, Kronos etc. DS9 was just so damn localized to it's own little niche in the quadrant that any reference to a planet outside Bajor or Cardassia was a very rare occurence. Not to mention other ships fighting the war.

I disagree with you that INS is set after the Dominion War based on several cues (some of which are mentioned by other posters). I would add to the list Picard's comments about Dominion negotiations being ongoing (around "Statistical Probabilities"?), the Federation trying to bring more races in to the fold, presumably to help the war effort (i.e. the Alien race that Picard is meeting with when we first see the Enterprise crew), Picard's comments to Worf about "how they do things on DS9" when Worf fails to show up at his post on time, and the new dress uniforms (which were first seen in DS9 S7 ep "Inter Arnim Enim Silent Leges"- though they may have been introduced earlier but we just didn't see them until then) There is almost nothing to suggest in the movie takes place following the Dominion War. Plus, it was released in 1998, which was the general (real-life) timeframe between S6 & S7 of DS9, making it much more likely for the movie to fall in that time period IMHO

Timo February 13 2013 02:40 PM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
Quote:

The strange thing is that the war is being referenced in the movie several times
Hmh? I never heard a single reference.

- The word "war" is never used in the movie, anywhere.
- The word "Dominion" is only used three times. Two of these are in reference to past calamities, grouped together with the likes of the Borg or the Cardassians. One is in reference to negotiations, a likely postwar endeavor.
- The heroes never mention anybody engaging in combat, anywhere, at any point, other than themselves as regards the onscreen events.

Negotiations and gathering of allies are typical postwar activities, especially when there has been no clear-cut victory or defeat. "What You Leave Behind" ends on an especially ambiguous note, there being no hint as to what the conditions of the peace or truce might be, and no mention of the Dominion withdrawing from its conquests or making reparations. Solidifying one's positions would be extremely important in a war that ends with more than one victor.

Quote:

There is almost nothing to suggest in the movie takes place following the Dominion War.
Except for

- the total absence of references to an ongoing war of any sort
- the plot concept that is at complete odds with an ongoing war against the Son'a or their allies
- the total absence of war effort from the lives of our heroes, amounting to desertion if a war really were ongoing...

Timo Saloniemi

F. King Daniel February 17 2013 12:10 AM

Re: Star Trek: INS- Son'a/Dominion Question
 
According to the timeline at the end of Voyages of Imagination, Insurrection takes place between the DS9 episodes "Covenant" and "It's Only a Paper Moon"

I always took the line about ongoing Dominion negotiations to mean the film took place immedately after DS9, when details of the Dominion's surrender were being worked out.


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