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-   -   What are the requirements for the joining the Federation? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=201688)

The Overlord January 27 2013 09:19 AM

What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?

BillJ January 27 2013 06:10 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Doing whatever the Federation tells you to do seems to be the only requirement in the 24th century.

Mojochi January 27 2013 08:25 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Being a petitioning warp capable society which adheres to the UFP Charter

C.E. Evans January 27 2013 09:48 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
The main things:
  • Having a unified planetary government.
  • Public awareness and acceptance of other starfaring societies (usually--but not always--comes with the development of a FTL drive).
Anything else varies depending on the story being told.

Timo January 27 2013 10:19 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Even the first of those two doesn't really appear to be that strict a requirement. The point in the episode "Attached" was that on Kesprytt III, one part of the planet, under the so-called Kes government, would join the Federation while the other, under Prytt government, would not. It would suffice for the joining part to have a single government, then - the Kes would not be required to conquer the entire planet first. Had this taken place, it would have been a first, but it still could have happened.

So basically it just boils down to a culture being "contactable". If you can make First Contact with 'em, you can also invite 'em in.

Timo Saloniemi

MacLeod January 27 2013 10:29 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Also a non-caste based system would seem to be required, as having a caste based sytem would have excluded Bajor from entry.

C.E. Evans January 27 2013 10:47 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Quote:

Even the first of those two doesn't really appear to be that strict a requirement. The point in the episode "Attached" was that on Kesprytt III, one part of the planet, under the so-called Kes government, would join the Federation while the other, under Prytt government, would not. It would suffice for the joining part to have a single government, then - the Kes would not be required to conquer the entire planet first. Had this taken place, it would have been a first, but it still could have happened.
The situation on Kesprytt III was treated as an atypical case to be evaluated by our heroes and Picard made a point of it being not the norm:

"Every member of the Federation entered as a unified world, and that unity said something about them. That they had resolved certain social and political differences and they were now ready to become part a larger community..."

And ultimately as the episode panned out, the disharmony & animosity between the Kes and the Prytt led to a recommendation by our heroes that the planet wasn't ready for Federation membership at all.

T'Girl January 27 2013 11:31 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Quote:

MacLeod wrote: (Post 7600258)
Also a non-caste based system would seem to be required, as having a caste based sytem would have excluded Bajor from entry.

Sisko said (iirc) that there can't be caste based discrimination. Not that there couldn't be castes.

Quote:

C.E. Evans wrote: (Post 7600348)
[Picard] "Every member of the Federation entered as a unified world ..."

Unified world doesn't automatically mean a one world government. It could refer to a species seeing themselves as a people, a social realization.

Quote:

Public awareness and acceptance of other starfaring societies
Being able to intellectually conceptualize that other species exist would be important.

I don't believe that having a indigenously created warp drive would be a factor (it would force the issue on first contact), a civilization that was culturally and socially mature in the eyes of the Federation Membership, but lacked a indigenous warp drive, might still be asked to join, they could alway simply buy a engine from someone.

The requirements would include a desire to join the Federation, that being a part of the Federation would bring benefit that simply having a relationship with it wouldn't provide.

:)

C.E. Evans January 27 2013 11:57 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 7600606)
Quote:

C.E. Evans wrote: (Post 7600348)
[Picard]"Every member of the Federation entered as a unified world ..."

Unified world doesn't automatically mean a one world government. It could refer to a species seeing themselves as a people, a social realization.

Well, when there's a specific reference to a unified world, I think they mean a unified world rather than one that isn't.
:D
Quote:

Quote:

Public awareness and acceptance of other starfaring societies
Being able to intellectually conceptualize that other species exist would be important.

I don't believe that having a indigiously created warp drive would be a factor (it would force the issue on first contact), a civilization that was culturally and socially mature (in the eyes of the Federation Membership) but lacked a indigenous warp drive might still be asked to join, they could alway simply buy a engine from someone.

The requirements would include a desire to join the Federation, that being a part of the Federation would bring benefit that simply having a relationship with it wouldn't provide.
I think the existence of a FTL drive is the general yardstick that Starfleet uses to determine a fledgling civilization's readiness to join the greater galactic community for first contact purposes, but it would already be a fait accompli for those seeking Federation membership.

The Overlord January 28 2013 12:52 AM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Quote:

MacLeod wrote: (Post 7600258)
Also a non-caste based system would seem to be required, as having a caste based sytem would have excluded Bajor from entry.

I assume a cast system is one of many social problems that would exclude a planet from joining.

I doubt the Federation would have allowed the Cardassian Union to join the Federation, when they were still under a military dictatorship. Cardassian society doesn't have a caste system persay, but they do have a oppressive government that combines the worst aspects of Hitler's and Stalin's regime, that would seem to conflict with the Federation's values. In Drumhead, it seemed like were was some sort of bill or charter of rights for Federation citizens, so I doubt they let in societies who did have similar values.

Also in Hunted it seemed unlikely that the Federation would let the Angosians join, until they resolved the situation with their veterans.

T'Girl January 28 2013 02:03 AM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Quote:

C.E. Evans wrote: (Post 7600747)
Well, when there's a specific reference to a unified world, I think they mean a unified world rather than one that isn't.

Yes, but not a specific reference to a (your words) "Having a unified planetary government." Having the people of a planet recognize that they are of one people and not many, would unify them in a international community (I think the internet is helping this process). This would not require a single planetary government.

All Humans are Human Beings, this simple fact hardly call for the creation of a monolithic political state.

One does not require the other.

Quote:

FTL drive ... would already be a fait accompli for those seeking Federation membership.
This isn't the first time this matter has appeared on this board. The position has been raise that a potential member would not only have to have a warp drive, but that they would have had to of invented it themselves. Centuries before, the Trill couldn't have simply bought their warp drive engines from the Betazed.

I mean, all a warp drive engine is, is a propulsion device. Why would inventing it be a part of the yardstick. Wouldn't the society and overall culture of a species be a far more important consideration?

If you see what I mean?

:)

C.E. Evans January 28 2013 03:02 AM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 7601362)
Quote:

C.E. Evans wrote: (Post 7600747)
Well, when there's a specific reference to a unified world, I think they mean a unified world rather than one that isn't.

Yes, but not a specific reference to a (your words) "Having a unified planetary government."

Those aren't my words, those are the actual words actually spoken onscreen by Picard in "Attached."
Quote:

Quote:

FTL drive ... would already be a fait accompli for those seeking Federation membership.
This isn't the first time this matter has appeared on this board.
I think you're actually talking about something beside the point. If a world is applying for membership in the Federation, it's already a given that the first contact protocols no longer apply.

Timo January 28 2013 05:09 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Quote:

Those aren't my words, those are the actual words actually spoken onscreen by Picard in "Attached."
False. Picard's words, as already quoted, were "Every member of the Federation entered as a unified world, and that unity said something about them." Nothing about the form of government there. Indeed, Crusher responded with "By all indications, the Kes are a very unified, very progressive people.", suggesting that planetary government was only peripheral to the discussion. Picard accepts the response as such.

Quote:

If a world is applying for membership in the Federation, it's already a given that the first contact protocols no longer apply.
...Or, more exactly, that they have already been dealt with. Meaning that compatibility with first contact is a requirement for membership in practice.

Although this sidesteps the issue that there can be many ways to qualify for first contact. Meeting Starfleet or UFP criteria is one of those. Just actively initiating first contact on one's own is another, whether Starfleet or the UFP likes it or not. Being forced into first contact by a third party is yet another.

Starfleet or the UFP can't always choose the terms of contact. They can dictate the terms of membership, though. But if contact was by the second or third method, then we cannot claim that the applicant has already met a set of criteria by the very act of applying. Unless the only set of relevance is "the ability to contact and apply", that is.

Timo Saloniemi

Melakon January 28 2013 07:25 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Based on visual evidence, padded bra technology may also be required.

C.E. Evans January 28 2013 07:56 PM

Re: What are the requirements for the joining the Federation?
 
Quote:

Quote:

Those aren't my words, those are the actual words actually spoken onscreen by Picard in "Attached."
False. Picard's words, as already quoted, were "Every member of the Federation entered as a unified world, and that unity said something about them."
Um, that was exactly what Picard said, so why are you calling it false?
Quote:

Nothing about the form of government there. Indeed, Crusher responded with "By all indications, the Kes are a very unified, very progressive people.", suggesting that planetary government was only peripheral to the discussion. Picard accepts the response as such.
That's your opinion, not mine. Otherwise, it seems quite clear that the situation regarding Kesprytt III is an unusual one, something from the norm, and not something that commonly happens. If it was, then Picard wouldn't have made a point about it.


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