The Trek BBS

The Trek BBS (http://www.trekbbs.com/index.php)
-   Trek Literature (http://www.trekbbs.com/forumdisplay.php?f=43)
-   -   Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=200854)

SicOne January 19 2013 08:16 PM

Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Has a complete unfolding of events prior to the Enterprise-C coming from 2344 into 2366 been discussed in Trek literature, or of what occurred after they returned to 2344 after encountering the Enterprise-D and resumed battle with the Romulans?

Reading some comments in Trek Tech have led me to thinking about the episode and some questions come to mind. Surely these have been asked before, probably several times, and surely been answered somewhere in Trek literature, if not spoken about directly in this forum. I posed a few of these in Trek Tech as part of the time-travel discussion but thought I would just ask directly in Trek Lit. I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

(1) Was it ever determined, whether on-screen or in Trek literature, if the Enterprise-C was completely destroyed by the Romulans at Narendra 3? Or was the ship either captured or salvaged? I know that Yar bartered herself in return for the lives of the survivors, but not HOW they survived or how many of the one hundred-ish that had made it to 2366 survived the confrontation with the Romulans when they came back to 2344.

(2) If the C was indeed captured or salvaged, was it ever determined if the Romulans discovered that the ship had indeed been to their future and returned? I would imagine the ship's chronometers would have been off by however many hours it spent in 2366...

(3) Were the C survivors that Yar traded herself for repatriated to the Federation at some point? Or, like the Khitomer survivors Worf found in the TNG episode, were they left to live their lives on a remote planet?

(4) Though clearly the ship was in shit shape when it emerged from the rift in 2366 and they got it fixed up enough before sending it back to 2344 to fight back, why did the crew of the Ent-D not arm it with more powerful 2366-period photon torpedoes? In fact, it stands to reason that after 20+ years of warfare with the Klingons, the phasers and torpedos of the alternate-Enterprise-D in 2366 would even be more powerful than those of the original timeline Ent-D. If the purpose of the C going back was to fight and win in order to prevent the Klingon-Federation war of the next 20+ years, after all, why would the D not do everything that it could to make sure the C won that lopsided battle against four Romulan warbirds?

It also occurs to me that at some point the Romulans discovered they had a future-history Tasha Yar in their possession and would have interrogated her for all she knew in terms of history (though clearly it had changed, certainly she would have some valuable insights) and technology...thereby giving the Romulans of 2344 somewhat of an advantage over the Federation and the Klingons of that time. All we know of Yar is that Sela told Picard she was executed when Sela was a small child, but I don't know that it's ever been told in Trek literature of what Yar went through between the time of the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise" and when the Romulan general who was Sela's father took Yar into his protection and begat Sela...or any interrogations that may have occurred between Sela's birth and Yar's death.

(Come to think of it...how do we really know that Yar is indeed dead? Considering Sela's manipulations and deceit over the years, could Yar's "death" have been a way to explain to a young Sela why her mother was no longer in her life, while her father transferred Yar over to the loving arms of the Tal Shiar for mind-sifting in return for some political advantage?)

I realize this has probably already been written of, or talked to death in this forum in times past, but I'd be interested in hearing some thoughts on these matters.

DarkHorizon January 19 2013 09:18 PM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

SicOne wrote: (Post 7560346)
(4) Though clearly the ship was in shit shape when it emerged from the rift in 2366 and they got it fixed up enough before sending it back to 2344 to fight back, why did the crew of the Ent-D not arm it with more powerful 2366-period photon torpedoes? In fact, it stands to reason that after 20+ years of warfare with the Klingons, the phasers and torpedos of the alternate-Enterprise-D in 2366 would even be more powerful than those of the original timeline Ent-D. If the purpose of the C going back was to fight and win in order to prevent the Klingon-Federation war of the next 20+ years, after all, why would the D not do everything that it could to make sure the C won that lopsided battle against four Romulan warbirds?

Directly addressed in the episode:

"Unless we were to rearm them with modern-"
"We can't do that. If we send that ship back with new technology, we'll be altering the past."
"But that's what you're talking about anyway, isn't it - altering the past?"
"We're talking about restoring the past."

The point was never to have the E-C win, just to survive long enough to be seen in the way history meant her to be seen - her crew sacrificing themselves to help a Klingon outpost.

Stevil2001 January 19 2013 10:57 PM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
The short story "The Fourth Toast" in Strange New Worlds III has Castillo still alive during the time of The Next Generation, though I'm afraid I recall not a single detail beyond the fact of the story's existence and Castillo's presence.

Vulcan's Heart also covers this period.

Markonian January 19 2013 11:22 PM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
The fate of the Enterprise-C will be dealt with in STO's upcoming third anniversary episode, with Denise Crosby providing voiceover for Empress Sela.

In STO, the Romulans captured the Enterprise and this mission will see the introduction of the Ambassador-class to the game.

Alt-Tasha is probably dead, otherwise Sela would have had it her internal monologue in any one of her Lit appearances. Unless she doesn't know Tasha was kept alive and the execution faked.

I don't know whether it will tackled in TrekLit someday but in less than two months, the Enterprise-C will RETURN.

Allyn Gibson January 20 2013 12:58 AM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

SicOne wrote: (Post 7560346)
It also occurs to me that at some point the Romulans discovered they had a future-history Tasha Yar in their possession and would have interrogated her for all she knew in terms of history (though clearly it had changed, certainly she would have some valuable insights) and technology...thereby giving the Romulans of 2344 somewhat of an advantage over the Federation and the Klingons of that time.

I've made this assumption; it's how I make some things in Nemesis make sense in my head. Why did the Romulans clone Picard? When he was in command of the Stargazer they couldn't have known that he would be important someday. So, either the Romulans knew something about the future -- or they had a cloning program that covered hundreds of Starfleet officers. The assumption I make, then, is that alt-Yar revealed some things about the future that eventually filtered into the cloning program.

Christopher January 20 2013 01:34 AM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

Allyn Gibson wrote: (Post 7561441)
I've made this assumption; it's how I make some things in Nemesis make sense in my head. Why did the Romulans clone Picard? When he was in command of the Stargazer they couldn't have known that he would be important someday.

Remember the timing. Nemesis took place 24 years after Picard's command of the Stargazer ended, which is about the same age Tom Hardy was when he played Shinzon. So at the time Shinzon was most likely conceived, Picard was already an accomplished, fifty-year-old Starfleet captain with over two decades of command experience -- aside from rank and posting, essentially at the same point in his career that Kirk was around the time of The Wrath of Khan. He was already important. People forget this, but the original intent behind the Picard character as stated in the series bible was that he had already become a Starfleet legend before TNG even began -- that he was given the flagship because of his long and impressive record of achievement as an explorer.

After all, Roddenberry basically put TNG together by recycling the unused Phase II series premise with a few tweaks and name changes. Riker was Decker, Troi was Ilia, Data was Xon crossed with Questor. And in Phase II, Kirk was supposed to be the seasoned veteran acting as mentor to the next generation of Starfleet hero as personified by Decker -- and perhaps even ceding command to Decker after a while if Shatner didn't want to commit to the full series. So that was the idea behind Picard -- that he had already had his equivalent of Kirk's famous mission a generation earlier and was now the admired elder statesman passing the torch (although that idea that fell by the wayside once Patrick Stewart's popularity -- and ambition for action-hero storylines -- outstripped Jonathan Frakes's by a wide margin).


Quote:

So, either the Romulans knew something about the future -- or they had a cloning program that covered hundreds of Starfleet officers. The assumption I make, then, is that alt-Yar revealed some things about the future that eventually filtered into the cloning program.
According to Death in Winter, a Romulan agent took DNA samples from numerous important Starfleet officers at the Crushers' wedding in 2348. They wouldn't have needed to sample hundreds, though -- just the top tier of officers, which, again, Picard was already in at the time.

And we don't know that Shinzon was the only clone they created. There could've been dozens of clones of Starfleet officers laboring in the mines of Remus, with Shinzon being the only one who managed to survive and escape them.

SicOne January 20 2013 06:05 AM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

DarkHorizon wrote: (Post 7560550)
Quote:

SicOne wrote: (Post 7560346)
(4) Though clearly the ship was in shit shape when it emerged from the rift in 2366 and they got it fixed up enough before sending it back to 2344 to fight back, why did the crew of the Ent-D not arm it with more powerful 2366-period photon torpedoes? In fact, it stands to reason that after 20+ years of warfare with the Klingons, the phasers and torpedos of the alternate-Enterprise-D in 2366 would even be more powerful than those of the original timeline Ent-D. If the purpose of the C going back was to fight and win in order to prevent the Klingon-Federation war of the next 20+ years, after all, why would the D not do everything that it could to make sure the C won that lopsided battle against four Romulan warbirds?

Directly addressed in the episode:

"Unless we were to rearm them with modern-"
"We can't do that. If we send that ship back with new technology, we'll be altering the past."
"But that's what you're talking about anyway, isn't it - altering the past?"
"We're talking about restoring the past."

The point was never to have the E-C win, just to survive long enough to be seen in the way history meant her to be seen - her crew sacrificing themselves to help a Klingon outpost.

But at the same time, Ent-C had to deal the Romulans a crippling enough blow that the Klingon outpost survived in order to communicate the fact that the ship fought 4 Warbirds on behalf of the Klingon Empire to create the detente and later the alliance that the Federation and Klingons enjoyed in Next Gen time. Otherwise, what good would it have done if Ent-C returned, was quickly obliterated, and then the Romulans wiped out the Narendra outpost and the news of the Federation sacrifice died with them?

The only way I could see this working out (Ent-C survivors plus Romulan survivors with the upper hand plus Klingon survivors on Narendra 3 to spread the gospel) is if Ent-C destroyed three Warbirds and severely damaged the fourth (or at least its weapons systems) before the C was destroyed or rendered uninhabitable, whereupon the surviving Warbird retreated to Romulan space without further menacing the Klingons.

In regards to "restoring the past" versus "altering the past", well, Yar going back with the C "alters" rather than "restores", so I had rather envisioned that someone on the D may have slipped a few 2366 photon torpedoes to their counterpart on the C, just to make sure the C won. After all, it was 4-on-1 and Enterprise-C was already badly damaged from the initial volley, putting them behind the eight-ball. As one of the resident experts in such matters, Christopher may wish to chime in regarding whether the presence of Yar on the C is an "alter" or a "restore"?

Kertrats47 January 20 2013 06:45 AM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
I think it's an "alter," because before "Yesterday's Enterprise," the last recorded contact with the Romulan Empire was the Tomed Incident, 50 years prior to the episode "The Neutral Zone." After "Yesterday's Enterprise," history is aware of the Enterprise-C and her sacrifice at Narendra III, putting the last contact with the Romulans much closer to the "current" time frame.

Christopher January 20 2013 03:27 PM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

Kertrats47 wrote: (Post 7562818)
I think it's an "alter," because before "Yesterday's Enterprise," the last recorded contact with the Romulan Empire was the Tomed Incident, 50 years prior to the episode "The Neutral Zone." After "Yesterday's Enterprise," history is aware of the Enterprise-C and her sacrifice at Narendra III, putting the last contact with the Romulans much closer to the "current" time frame.

Except that "Angel One" featured a builiding confrontation with the Romulans as a plot point months before "The Neutral Zone" came along. So either you accept that there are simply continuity errors in this work of fiction, or you don't interpret the "no contact" line from TNZ too rigidly.

In fact, what Riker actually said in TNZ was that there had been "no direct contact" since Tomed. So there could have been indirect contacts -- such as a Starfleet vessel defending a Klingon outpost from a Romulan attack, or such as whatever happened in "Angel One." I tend to interpret the line to mean that there was no formal diplomatic contact between the governments.

Rķu rķu, chķu January 20 2013 04:29 PM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

SicOne wrote: (Post 7560346)
Were the C survivors that Yar traded herself for repatriated to the Federation at some point?

I'd like to think so.

My personal theory is that during, or near, the events of Vulcan's Heart, Charvanek arranged to have the Ent-C survivors returned to the Federation. She seemed like a fairly reasonable person. Of course she couldn't do anything for Tasha, who was already the property of that Romulan general, but I'd like to think she could help the other survivors.

Ronald Held January 20 2013 10:28 PM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
I think Christopher is correct that there were no official government contacts, but sporadic military battles.

SicOne January 20 2013 10:33 PM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: (Post 7563658)
Quote:

SicOne wrote: (Post 7560346)
Were the C survivors that Yar traded herself for repatriated to the Federation at some point?

I'd like to think so.

My personal theory is that during, or near, the events of Vulcan's Heart, Charvanek arranged to have the Ent-C survivors returned to the Federation. She seemed like a fairly reasonable person. Of course she couldn't do anything for Tasha, who was already the property of that Romulan general, but I'd like to think she could help the other survivors.

Looks like I'm going to have to read [I]Vulcan's Heart[I] for starters, then the SNW story. I am thinking that if they were repatriated, it was probably through an intermediary and thus kept the Romulans and the Federation from talking or meeting directly in accordance with what was presented in "The Neutral Zone".

But I can't picture Federation officials of 2344-ish being satisfied with the Romulans not giving up an alternate-history Tasha Yar along with the Ent-C survivors, who would surely tell the Federation all about where she was from and what she did to help assure the outcome of that battle. Knowingly leaving Yar in their hands would be too much to believe without a good explanation.

Perhaps another way of looking at it may be that at some point the survivors were returned to the Federation and sworn to secrecy about Yar, and then when Sela was a child an arrangement to get Yar back was concluded, Yar's existence and origin in an alternate timeline was covered up by Starfleet, and a young Sela was told that her mother had been executed to explain her absence while an old Yar now sits in quiet retirement somewhere...unless something happened to her in the interim.

rfmcdpei January 20 2013 11:44 PM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

SicOne wrote: (Post 7565056)
Quote:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: (Post 7563658)
Quote:

SicOne wrote: (Post 7560346)
Were the C survivors that Yar traded herself for repatriated to the Federation at some point?

I'd like to think so.

My personal theory is that during, or near, the events of Vulcan's Heart, Charvanek arranged to have the Ent-C survivors returned to the Federation. She seemed like a fairly reasonable person. Of course she couldn't do anything for Tasha, who was already the property of that Romulan general, but I'd like to think she could help the other survivors.

Looks like I'm going to have to read [I]Vulcan's Heart[I] for starters, then the SNW story. I am thinking that if they were repatriated, it was probably through an intermediary and thus kept the Romulans and the Federation from talking or meeting directly in accordance with what was presented in "The Neutral Zone".

But I can't picture Federation officials of 2344-ish being satisfied with the Romulans not giving up an alternate-history Tasha Yar along with the Ent-C survivors, who would surely tell the Federation all about where she was from and what she did to help assure the outcome of that battle. Knowingly leaving Yar in their hands would be too much to believe without a good explanation.

Perhaps another way of looking at it may be that at some point the survivors were returned to the Federation and sworn to secrecy about Yar, and then when Sela was a child an arrangement to get Yar back was concluded, Yar's existence and origin in an alternate timeline was covered up by Starfleet, and a young Sela was told that her mother had been executed to explain her absence while an old Yar now sits in quiet retirement somewhere...unless something happened to her in the interim.

The script for "Redemption Part II" suggests that the survivors were not repatriated.

Quote:

PICARD The Enterprise C? It was lost... at the battle of Narendra Three... while defending a Klingon outpost from the Romulans.

GUINAN And... the survivors?

He regards her, perplexed. Where is this leading? But Guinan is an old and trusted friend. He'll follow along.

PICARD There were stories... that there might have been prisoners, taken back to Romulus. But those were just rumors.

She moves still closer to him, struggling with thoughts, feelings, memories... all of them a jumble that makes no sense. And yet...

GUINAN There were survivors. And one of them was Tasha Yar.

Picard stares at her. Is she out of her mind?

Rķu rķu, chķu January 21 2013 01:33 AM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
Quote:

SicOne wrote: (Post 7565056)
Looks like I'm going to have to read Vulcan's Heart for starters, then the SNW story. I am thinking that if they were repatriated, it was probably through an intermediary and thus kept the Romulans and the Federation from talking or meeting directly in accordance with what was presented in "The Neutral Zone".

Charvanek probably found some old freighter, gave it to the Ent-C survivors, and gave them clearance codes out of Romulan space while wishing them well. :)



As for Tasha - like I said, she was under the control of General Volskiar and so there would probably be nothing Charvanek could do for her. Volskiar was too well connected.

SicOne January 27 2013 04:06 AM

Re: Post-"Yesterday's Enterprise" events and entanglements
 
I read "The Fourth Toast" from SNW3 as well as the relevant sections of "Vulcan's Heart".

"Fourth Toast" was a decent enough short story, though I found it difficult to swallow that Castillo and Parker's escape pod made it past the Romulans, who would not have found it in their interests to allow survivors to get away.

I saw no mention in VH of the final outcome for the survivors beyond Tasha's arrangement with Volskiar so that seems to leave their fates unknown; furthermore, Yar's death (or "death", if you subscribe to the theory that her usefulness to interrogators outweighed her usefulness to Volskiar in raising Sela...) certainly alters the deal. But since Yar clearly never found an opportunity to get word to the Federation about them, from the Federation's point-of-view all hands went down with the C at Narendra 3.

Although I haven't gotten around to reading many of them yet, I am surprised that discussion of the Ent-C survivors hasn't been made in any of the books taking place during the break in the Romulan Star Empire. It seems (to me, anyway...) that if those folks are indeed alive or their fates are otherwise known by some moderate Romulans who view the Federation as more friend than foe (such as Donatra, while alive), it would be...interesting. Or does the existence of poorly-written fanfic prevent you authors from delving into that possibility? Rescue mission into Romulan space; yeah, farfetched. Political intrigue regarding Starfleet personnel held prisoner for decades; more plausible.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.