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YARN January 11 2013 02:28 PM

So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
He knows the slingshot trick. He used it to save Earth from the whale probe. The timeline was altered by Nero's interference.

The 9,999 Vulcans left in the 'verse would certainly appreciate having their planet back.

BillJ January 11 2013 02:46 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Why would he? He'd have to go back to 2233, which would change the lives of countless billions of people not directly involved in Vulcans destruction.

DarthTom January 11 2013 02:52 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 7519498)
Why would he? He'd have to go back to 2233, which would change the lives of countless billions of people not directly involved in Vulcans destruction.

Yarn's point about time travel as depicted in Trek I think is valid. In ST IV Spock makes the process look easy. In fact he makes the computations in his head to achieve time travel.

The second major time in at least film, is the Borg use it as a way to stop the federation from being founded. If they failed the first time why not try again - and again - and again?

Part of the problem with time travel throughout all of the series is if it is as simple as it appears why wouldn't they use it more frequently to save billions of people?

Generally speaking as a plot device I think Time Travel scenarios suck because of all of the holes it creates in the narrative.

Jackson_Roykirk January 11 2013 03:10 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Quote:

DarthTom wrote: (Post 7519507)
...Part of the problem with time travel throughout all of the series is if it is as simple as it appears why wouldn't they use it more frequently to save billions of people?

Generally speaking as a plot device I think Time Travel scenarios suck because of all of the holes it creates in the narrative.

Yes. It has always been a Star Trek thing to go back in time only when it is required to move the plot along in the direction the writers want the plot to move along.

After some awful event unfolded in a Star Trek TV show where lives are lost, I would often think to myself (only half-jokingly) "Why don't they simply go back in time and fix that so it doesn't happen, and save those people"?

Therin of Andor January 11 2013 03:22 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Quote:

YARN wrote: (Post 7519459)
He knows the slingshot trick. He used it to save Earth from the whale probe.

Check out the recent novel, "DTI: Forgotten History" by Christopher L Bennett. The USS Enterprise's engines were subtlely altered by their first (accidental) time travel (in "The Naked Time"), permitting a certain ease of use ("Assignment Earth", etc) - and the slingshot trick replicated later, in a Klingon vessel (ST IV), was extremely risky.

In any case, he'd be saving the Vulcan in this new timeline. The Vulcan of the prime universe is still there where it belongs.

Do you want him to save Amanda, too? Kirk's father? Chief Engineer Olsen? Cadets who get killed in the movie? Where is the cut-off? All the characters probably have dead relatives they'd like him to return.

BillJ January 11 2013 03:23 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
The difference is by the time Spock arrives in the new timeline, it had been chugging along for twenty-five years. How many billions of lives would he change, how many people would he be assigning to non-existence if he decided to go back and fix it?

It would be Admiral Janeway from Endgame all over again...

DarthTom January 11 2013 03:43 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 7519564)
Do you want him to save Amanda, too? Kirk's father? Chief Engineer Olsen? Cadets who get killed in the movie? Where is the cut-off? All the characters probably have dead relatives they'd like him to return.

In the DS9 episode Trials and Tribblations Sisko et al were able to successfully restore the original timeline without causing a lot of harm.

Spock could have gone back to the original incursion by Nero and fixed it there.

Chemahkuu January 11 2013 03:46 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
How?

A suicide mission to join the Kelvin in oblivion, yes I could see that going so well.

Ovation January 11 2013 03:50 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
When it comes to time travel stories (in any context, not just Trek), I've found it's best to simply enjoy them (if they're entertaining) and ignore all the implications. Otherwise, it just sucks the enjoyment out of the story.

It used to bother me (in my adolescent days) when time travel was used inconsistently within a particular "universe" (comics, movies, TV series, whatever) and when implications like some mentioned in this thread were ignored. Now, not so much. Probably because, over the years (adolescence was a long time ago for me), I've become accustomed to seeking immediate enjoyment from pop culture (any extra "thinking" it provokes is a bonus, not a requirement) and looking to other things for actual thought provoking discussion or contemplation. YMMV

DarthTom January 11 2013 03:54 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Quote:

Chemahkuu wrote: (Post 7519687)
How?

A suicide mission to join the Kelvin in oblivion, yes I could see that going so well.

Err. The beauty of time travel as presented in Trek is Spock has an infinite amount of time to plan exactly and execute the best way to destroy the Kelvin and then do their time warp thingy to go back.

Chemahkuu January 11 2013 04:01 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
No, he doesn't. He's considerably old and has devoted his final years to helping the Vulcan refugees. He has very, very limited time to do anything.

No ship in their universe or time period can go up against the Narada, that was the whole point. Sending any ship back a few days to snatch Old Spock from the path of the Narada and slamming the Red Matter into it will only prevent the final few days we witness from happening, saving Vulcan, but leaving the entire 25 year altered universe in existance.

Sending any ship back to the Kelvin's time will add it to the casualty list, destroyed along with her, but doing little or nothing else.

Spock has to work with the technology of his time, even with his insight it would take years to develop technology soley from his memory, and that is already impaired and will only more rapidly become so, his age is a determining factor now.

And even if they did develop a weapon, return to January 4th 2233 and deploy it into the black hole, the Kelvin is watching a lightening storm in space become an anomaly from which a black squid from hell emerges, only to be destroyed by a futuristic Federation vessel. Far from repairing the timeline, this will only create a second, less violently altered one, but an altered one anyway.

So really, why?

King Daniel Into Darkness January 11 2013 04:21 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Real life reason: Using time travel to undo every disaster or enemy attack that came along would reduce any threat in the Trekverse to zero.

In-universe reason: He could make things worse. Stopping Nero from destroying Earth was a close thing and any mission back could end in faliure and perhaps the entire Federation being systematically destroyed. Using DTI: Forgotten History's excuse to eliminate the slingshot effect, that leaves the Guardian of Forever - and since you can't fit a ship through it, you'd have to go on foot. And since using it is not exactly an exact science, that just adds more risk factors...

Chemahkuu January 11 2013 04:23 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
I know, I just mean the Narada arrival is the only thing that could stop the changed timeline. A ship would be destroyed, Red Matter means 2 slingshots to pick it up then go back and use it, any explosion big enough to take it out would destroy the Kelvin too and rip the anomaly even further open.

There really aren't even any safe options even if time travel where to be used.

YARN January 11 2013 04:29 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 7519564)
Check out the recent novel, "DTI: Forgotten History" by Christopher L Bennett. The USS Enterprise's engines were subtlely altered by their first (accidental) time travel (in "The Naked Time"), permitting a certain ease of use ("Assignment Earth", etc) - and the slingshot trick replicated later, in a Klingon vessel (ST IV), was extremely risky.

That's great, but it's hardly binding. I'm sure I could dig up a few Trek writers who suggest many different things.

With regard to risk, we're talking about the entire freaking planet, so risk seems acceptable.

Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 7519564)
In any case, he'd be saving the Vulcan in this new timeline. The Vulcan of the prime universe is still there where it belongs.

The nature of the time-travel in the film, as some have noted, is not entirely clear.

The question, however, is simple. If you can save billions of your people, in the universe you are in, do you save them or not?

Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 7519564)
Do you want him to save Amanda, too? Kirk's father? Chief Engineer Olsen? Cadets who get killed in the movie? Where is the cut-off? All the characters probably have dead relatives they'd like him to return.

Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 7519564)
The difference is by the time Spock arrives in the new timeline, it had been chugging along for twenty-five years. How many billions of lives would he change, how many people would he be assigning to non-existence if he decided to go back and fix it?

This nuTrek timeline has shown that people who are meant to be born are not only born, but have the job assignments they should have!

People who would still be shacking up and having kids if Spock intervened, so the those numbers wash out. What doesn't divide out are the billions of missing Vulcans.

And if we have a scruple about those 25 years, Spock could time travel to right before the Narada attacks Vulcan and assault it then as a measure of least intervention to save billions of lives, his home, his mother, his race, his culture.

bbailey861 January 11 2013 04:31 PM

Re: So why doesn't Spock save Vulcan?
 
Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 7519564)
Quote:

YARN wrote: (Post 7519459)
He knows the slingshot trick. He used it to save Earth from the whale probe.

Check out the recent novel, "DTI: Forgotten History" by Christopher L Bennett. The USS Enterprise's engines were subtlely altered by their first (accidental) time travel (in "The Naked Time"), permitting a certain ease of use ("Assignment Earth", etc) - and the slingshot trick replicated later, in a Klingon vessel (ST IV), was extremely risky.

In any case, he'd be saving the Vulcan in this new timeline. The Vulcan of the prime universe is still there where it belongs.

Do you want him to save Amanda, too? Kirk's father? Chief Engineer Olsen? Cadets who get killed in the movie? Where is the cut-off? All the characters probably have dead relatives they'd like him to return.

ToA, you took the words right out of my mouth. If there are questions WRT time travel and it's effects or why don't we just do this or this - I wholeheartedly recommend reading both of Christopher L Bennett's DTI books. He does a very good job of reconciling a lot of questions.


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