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-   -   Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=199132)

Mister Atoz January 3 2013 08:55 PM

Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Both "What are Little Girls are Made Of?" and "Dagger of the Mind" involve

a famous scientist who turns bad,

who traps Kirk and a woman companion with a past love interest deep underground

a rotating, consciousness-stealing, evil technology

the same sound effects are used to depict the spinning device

beaming an unauthorized, mind-washed person aboard the Enterprise.

Spock discerns what the problem is by picking up clues from mind-washed individual

the ultimate death and destruction of said scientist.

Which episode do you like better? Why?

Dale Sams January 3 2013 09:05 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Quote:

Mister Atoz wrote: (Post 7483318)
Both "What are Little Girls are Made Of?" and "Dagger of the Mind" involve

a famous scientist who turns bad,

who traps Kirk and a woman companion with a past love interest deep underground

a rotating, consciousness-stealing, evil technology

the same sound effects are used to depict the spinning device

beaming an unauthorized, mind-washed person aboard the Enterprise.

the ultimate death and destruction of said scientist.

Which episode do you like better? Why?

Which one has Helen Noel?

/thread.

jayrath January 3 2013 09:12 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Quote:

Mister Atoz wrote: (Post 7483318)
Both "What are Little Girls are Made Of?" and "Dagger of the Mind" involve

a famous scientist who turns bad,

who traps Kirk and a woman companion with a past love interest deep underground

a rotating, consciousness-stealing, evil technology

the same sound effects are used to depict the spinning device

beaming an unauthorized, mind-washed person aboard the Enterprise.

the ultimate death and destruction of said scientist.

Which episode do you like better? Why?

You seem to hate both episodes. I refuse to play your little game.

Mister Atoz January 3 2013 09:15 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Far from it. I love them both.

~ Atoz


Which episode do you like better? Why?[/QUOTE]

You seem to hate both episodes. I refuse to play your little game.[/QUOTE]

JimZipCode January 3 2013 09:21 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Dagger!

Actually I don't think these episodes are very close in quality, despite the similarities you list. Dagger is far superior.
  • I adore Dr Helen Noel, the sexiest woman ever to appear on TOS. She's also a little more active than most TOS eye candy. She kills that guy in the shield control room, and disables the shield.
  • The byplay between them evokes life on board the Enterprise between missions ("At the Christmas party ?"). In general I enjoy all the early s1 episodes where they paint a picture of an ongoing life around the Federation, even if the main story is not all that compelling.
  • I like Morgan Woodward, even in this hammy role. As a kid I did not realize he was the same actor who later played Captain Tracey; but the first time I saw Omega Glory I knew Tracey was loony.
  • The conversations between Kirk and Dr Adams are enjoyable, as Kirk's attitude evolves from utter respect thru embarrassed verification to suspicion to deadly enemy. There are some nice moments: a three-sided conversation including Dr Noel on the humane treatment of the insane; and a conversation via communicator with Spock where Dr Adams excuses himself from the room to give privacy.
  • First mind meld!
There is a lot of interest here. And the ending commands some sober respect.

By contrast, Little Girls is merely creepy. The mental time bomb Kirk sets for his double (I'm sick of your half-breed interference!) is clever, and I love the various Ruk themes in the score. But there isn't a whole lot here. Nurse Chapel is much less interesting than Dr Noel which is a shame, since she was a regular character and Dr Noel a one-shot and Dr Korby is less interesting than Dr Adams.

I vote Dagger.

Dale Sams January 3 2013 09:28 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
I'll play a little:

WALGMO: At least the 'mad scientist' has the excuse of 's*** just got out of hand. It's just a bunch of paranoid, insane androids with a half-assed plan.

In Dagger of the Mind, what the hell was Inspector Luger's plan?? He should have just stuck Kirk and Dr. Noel in the chair, and sent them on their way. The more convulated the plan, the greater chance of things screwing up. If my plan doesn't work..well..the gigs up innit it? "No no..I'll make Kirk fall in love and..well, I haven't worked the rest out."

But I like Dagger better because it has Noel as apposed to ..ugh..Chapel. And as a kid I thought WALGMO was an ugly looking episode. all the browns..yuk.

Pauln6 January 3 2013 09:43 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
I agree that Noel is probably one of the most active female characters in TOS, although Uhura has a few moments of her own. They only ever paid lip service to Chapel's scientific credentials and Ann Mulhall, another interesting, competent scientist spent a lot of her time possessed and girly.

I think I agree, I prefer Dagger because it has Noel in it. I really hope Nu-Noel crops up in the comic version! :techman:

Melakon January 3 2013 09:48 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
WaLGMO? was the first episode I ever saw. Unfortunately, I came into it around halfway, and the fake cave set gave me a bad impression, among other things. I liked Ted Cassidy's work in it though.

For DotM, it's performances. One highlight for me is Kirk's breakdown in the chair at the act break. The first on-screen mind meld is mesmerizing, including its mandatory acknowledgment to standards & practices that Spock was not performing hypnosis. Nimoy and Woodward worked the scene wonderfully, a vivid contrast to VanGelder's earlier insanity. And James Gregory was deliciously evil.

Mister Atoz January 3 2013 10:03 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
That's most interesting, crew. I DO love Dagger of the Mind -- I love Morgan Woodward as Van Gelder (especially when he just tries to say his name) and of course Helen Noel is, by popular consensus, the most beautiful woman ever to appear on TOS (by a nose!) Tristan Adams is a terrific villain.

However, I have to vote for What Are Little Girls Made Of because Roger Korby (Michael Strong) is a more interesting villain, and he better represents the theme of technological immodesty. His hunger for immortality is a more interesting character motivation than Dr. Adams' brainwashing evil. It's a more subtle theme, to my mind. Little Girls is darker, moodier, with more jealousy, more romanticism, and more passion. (Speaking of Star trek women, Sherry Jackson sure gives Marianna Hill a run for her money!)

Korby remains a sympathetic character right up to the end when he hands Kirk his phaser weapon. I've been watching this episode for decades, and I'm picking up now on the way he says "Now do you understand?" every time he shows Kirk a new android cloning trick. Korby is talking technology. Kirk is talking morality.

It's as if you showed me your iphone and all the cool things it can do -- and you say "Now, do you understand?" And meanwhile the iphone is causing people to walk across streets without looking, or otherwise distracting a person from other things he should be doing (like making a living, being with one's children, etc).

The underlying theme of technological immodesty is ultimately more interesting than the old Cold War theme of brainwashing and mind control.

Little Girls by a nose. THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR VIEWS.

~ Mr Atoz

Dale Sams January 3 2013 10:16 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Quote:

Mister Atoz wrote: (Post 7483585)
That's most interesting, crew. I DO love Dagger of the Mind -- I love Morgan Woodward as Van Gelder (especially when he just tries to say his name) and of course Helen Noel is, by popular consensus, the most beautiful woman ever to appear on TOS (by a nose!) Tristan Adams is a terrific villain.

However, I have to vote for What Are Little Girls Made Of because Roger Korby (Michael Strong) is a more interesting villain, and he better represents the theme of technological immodesty. His hunger for immortality is a more interesting character motivation than Dr. Adams' brainwashing evil. It's a more subtle theme, to my mind. Little Girls is darker, moodier, with more jealousy, more romanticism, and more passion. (Speaking of Star trek women, Sherry Jackson sure gives Marianna Hill a run for her money!)

Korby remains a sympathetic character right up to the end when he hands Kirk his phaser weapon. I've been watching this episode for decades, and I'm picking up now on the way he says "Now do you understand?" every time he shows Kirk a new android cloning trick. Korby is talking technology. Kirk is talking morality.

It's as if you showed me your iphone and all the cool things it can do -- and you say "Now, do you understand?" And meanwhile the iphone is causing people to walk across streets without looking, or otherwise distracting a person from other things he should be doing (like making a living, being with one's children, etc).

The underlying theme of technological immodesty is ultimately more interesting than the old Cold War theme of brainwashing and mind control.

Little Girls by a nose. THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR VIEWS.

~ Mr Atoz

How is Korby sympathetic? Redshirts start dying immediatly, and Korby is planning to...i dunno..take over the galaxy with android duplicates? Was that it?

I admit the very ending has some emotional resonance though.

Mister Atoz January 3 2013 10:49 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
You could interpret it differently. Maybe Korby's not trying to "take over" the galaxy -- he never said that -- he was merely trying to gain ACCEPTANCE for androids in society -- perhaps so that he himself would ultimately not be an outcast. He doesn't want to be discriminated against.

His philosophy is summed up in the words "Does THIS make such a difference?" Brilliant.

The episode is loaded with more complex layers of jealousy. Jealousy in that ~

Korby wants to protect his scientific research, keep it clandestine
Christine is jealous of Andrea
Ruk hates Korby for bringing in the outsiders
Kirk is jealous of his clone -- they're trying to out-talk each other

On another point, Dale, I'll admit the episode's props do have some deficits. It's amusing how slow they have to walk in the cave to make the opening exploration scene stretch to fill the time (and keep walking through the same area of the cave set again and again! :o) ) The worst part of it, I suppose, is the paper mache dummy that morphs into an android on that silly turntable.

Yet, Little Girls is more ambitious. The cave chase sequence in which Ruk pursues the Captain is quite effective. Ted Cassidy looks unbelievably menacing in that bulging costume. I can't think of a better looking costume in the ENTIRE series.

I also love the stunt when Ted Cassidy picks up Captain Kirk and throws him to the ground.

regards

~ Mr Atoz







~ Mr Atoz[/QUOTE]

How is Korby sympathetic? Redshirts start dying immediatly, and Korby is planning to...i dunno..take over the galaxy with android duplicates? Was that it?

I admit the very ending has some emotional resonance though.[/QUOTE]

OneBuckFilms January 3 2013 10:59 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Quote:

Mister Atoz wrote: (Post 7483318)
Both "What are Little Girls are Made Of?" and "Dagger of the Mind" involve

a famous scientist who turns bad,

who traps Kirk and a woman companion with a past love interest deep underground

a rotating, consciousness-stealing, evil technology

the same sound effects are used to depict the spinning device

beaming an unauthorized, mind-washed person aboard the Enterprise.

Spock discerns what the problem is by picking up clues from mind-washed individual

the ultimate death and destruction of said scientist.

Which episode do you like better? Why?

"What Are Little Girls Made Of?"

Why?
- Sherry Jackson as Andrea in that costume.
- Ruk.
- The Score.

Timo January 3 2013 11:06 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
I'm not convinced that we should credit either of the scientists with a "plan". They aren't master criminals or anything: they are just mad scientists who want to do their thing and not to be disturbed by the outside world that is incapable of understanding their greatness and the benevolence of their work.

Adams is credited with curing criminals and other insane people for the benefit of the UFP, and that's what he keeps doing till the bitter end. He just loses perspective when the only patients remaining are virtual incurables destined for Elba II, and can only be treated by application of the most questionable methods. His attempt to deal with the disruption caused by Kirk's arrival and disapproval of Adams' work is improvised on what he near-successfully did to van Gelder. For all we know, he planned on treating Kirk much the same way and again pleading "accident" or "self-inflicted damage" - which would be in keeping with the facts, as Kirk did self-inflict on his own free will, out of a desire that Adams could plausibly label as "misguided" after the damage was done.

What Adams didn't count on was his lack of time, due to Spock being suspicious already thanks to the unanticipated revelations from the mind meld...

As for Korby, he was even more surprised than Adams, but his improvisation had even sounder basis: he knew he could make a fully convincing duplicate Kirk. If he wanted, he might have had this Kirk commit an error that would destroy the Enterprise and guarantee Korby continued peace, perhaps for another decade or so considering how low Starfleet seems to be on starship resources. But his "plan" need not have extended quite that far.

Korby is IMHO the less interesting (even if more sympathetic) misguided/immoral genius in that his hand is being forced by Ruk, sometimes almost literally so. Adams is merely tangled in a web of his own making, and thus is a more "self-contained" and perhaps "fuller" dramatic element. But both have a long history of working almost alone, with "people" of questionable moral sense (insane criminals or alien androids) their only companions, which explains much of their antics.

As for the episodes in general, I sort of prefer the creepiness of "Girls" over the more straightforward classic asylum entertainment of "Dagger". Sure, creepy aliens are an easy way to create threat, conflict and tension, and the shortcomings of man in dealing with man are psychologically more interesting, but something is lacking from the pacing of the latter half of "Dagger" in the dramatic tension department. Or perhaps it's just the moodier lighting and more intricate set design of "Girls"...

Timo Saloniemi

JimZipCode January 3 2013 11:46 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Quote:

Dale Sams wrote: (Post 7483450)
In Dagger of the Mind, what the hell was Inspector Luger's plan?? He should have just stuck Kirk and Dr. Noel in the chair, and sent them on their way. The more convulated the plan, the greater chance of things screwing up. If my plan doesn't work..well..the gig's up innit it? "No no..I'll make Kirk fall in love and..well, I haven't worked the rest out."

Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7483897)
I'm not convinced that we should credit either of the scientists with a "plan". They aren't master criminals or anything: they are just mad scientists who want to do their thing and not to be disturbed ...
Adams' attempt to deal with the disruption caused by Kirk's arrival and disapproval of Adams' work is improvised on what he near-successfully did to van Gelder. ...
What Adams didn't count on was his lack of time,


I agree with Timo on that point, I think Dr Adams' so-called "plan" is largely improvisation at dealing with the unplanned circumstance of having Kirk on the spot. I think he's also dealing with the consequences of being overwhelmed by his ego.

Re-watching it, there is really no need for him to barge in on Dr Noel and Kirk in the Neutralizer room. He's already shown them the experimental device; has already told them that it's the device that Dr Van Gelder injured himself on. He's acknowledged that the device is powerful and dangerous: we understand that it must be used carefully. Kirk & Dr Noel break in and fiddle with the device; they discover that it is in fact powerful and dangerous.

If Dr Adams is trying to let the Van Gelder thing blow over, his reaction should be "So what?" If Kirk confronts him tomorrow about the device, he could just say "Yep, it's powerful, and can be dangerous if not used with the utmost caution. Dr Van Gelder's accident is extremely regrettable. We're doing everything we can not to have a repeat of it. But we don't want to just discard the device, because it's so helpful with the hardest-to-reach patients." And then just sit there quietly. What's Kirk going to do?

But NOOOOO! Instead he can't resist barging in on Kirk in the chair, and giving him a full dose. There's no plan, he's just lost all perspective and impulse control. Perhaps he can't abide the "aberrant behavior" of people out of control, wandering the corridors and breaking into rooms in HIS facility. Perhaps he's really excited by the chance to show off his toy's capabilities on a strong-minded starship captain. Whatever his motive, it's all downhill from there.

Dale Sams January 3 2013 11:46 PM

Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7483897)


As for Korby, he was even more surprised than Adams, but his improvisation had even sounder basis:

Great. Now I have this image of Korby and all the androids running around like Ed Rooney and his secretary in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off".


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