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M.A.C.O. December 26 2012 07:06 AM

Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
I want to discuss what you my fellow board mates think the Federation ships employed the Dominion War purposes were and where they would've been stationed tactically in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

From DS9 we know Galaxy, Defiant, Excelsior and Miranda class ships were used in Dominion campaigns.

From VOY we know Akira, and Prometheus class ships were used.

Intrepid and Sovereign class ships were relatively new and in service during the Dominion struggle but neither show displayed them being used in the conflict. We can assume they were fighting though, since Miranda and Excelsior class were both century old models and dozens were seen in the DS9 campaigns.

With these being the canon resources of Star Fleet at the time. Where would you deploy them?

For instance I can imagine Sovereign Class ships being deployed to defend the Federation founding worlds Earth, Vulcan, Andoria etc.

Defiant class are escort ships. We saw Sisko and crew with their's. There were 2 accompanying a Akira class in the episode VOY Message in a Bottle. Last but not least a Defiant class used for training cadets in the episode DS9 Valiant. I imagine they were divided throughout the Quadrant, since they were so small you could create one in a short time. Hell even the rag tag crew in the mirror universe put one together.

Vanyel January 1 2013 09:45 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
I would have used the Sovereigns, due to their speed and power, for hit and run missions. There were also so few of them, they could have also be clustered together to draw the Dominions attention away and open up a station or planet for attack by other forces.

Intrepids were fast and powerful too. They may also have done hit and runs with the Sovereigns or been used as quick responders and border patrol.

The Galaxy class ships would most likely be fleet command ships, front line with a few of their fleets defending key worlds. Planets furthest away from fighting would be relatively unprotected.

Akiras, and the other new or newish ships would be front line combat ships accompanied by the Excelesiors and Miranda class ships.

Finngle Bells January 1 2013 10:31 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 7446385)

From VOY we know Akira, and Prometheus class ships were used.

When did we see those two used against the Dominion? The Akira class probably were, but I don't know about the Prometheus- we only saw the prototype...

Vanyel January 1 2013 11:46 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
The Akira was seen in many fleet battles, the Prometheus was only seen in Voyager.

The Akira was seen in several battles, in the First Battle of Chin'Toka, we see one get shot up at about the 2:30 mark in this video.

Seventh White Boomer January 2 2013 03:27 AM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 7446385)
From DS9 we know Galaxy, Defiant, Excelsior and Miranda class ships were used in Dominion campaigns.

We also know Nebulas, Steamruuuners, Sabres, Akiras saw combat. The Curry/Raging Queen-type also saw action.

The Yeager-type saw at least static patrol duties in reasonably secure areas and the Intrepid was at least used for diplomatic transportation.

Quote:

From VOY we know Akira, and Prometheus class ships were used.
Someone has pointed out already that we saw the prototype was active, but don't know if it left testing before the war ended.

Timo January 2 2013 08:17 AM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Interestingly, when Starfleet wanted to engage and recover the superfast prototype, it sent a Nebula, which plausibly is among the faster types (because it looks like the Galaxy which turn is credited with high speed) - but then followed up with an Akira, for which relative propulsive performance is not know, and two Defiants, which are famed for their exceptional slowness and propulsive problems. It looks more like a case of "send whatever we have" than "tailor a force to match the mission".

It's probably that way for every fleet action... Quite possibly every single phaser emitter you can bring to bear will contribute to your success, even if some of your ships can't keep up or can't take the pounding. And if the enemy thinks likewise, then some of his ships will be inferior units, too, and yours can be pitted against them if the opportunity for "optimizing of force allocation" briefly arises.

Timo Saloniemi

Mage January 2 2013 09:04 AM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7476451)
and two Defiants, which are famed for their exceptional slowness and propulsive problems.

I don't remember it ever being stated on screen that the Defiant was slow. The propulsion problems had nothing to do with speed, but with the engines being way to powerfull for the spaceframe.

Think of it as shoving a LS6 V8, twincharged and producing close to a 1000bhp...... in a standard Volkswagen Beetle. The older type. The amount of torque from that engine would twist the chassis of that poor little Volkswagen.

Timo January 2 2013 09:31 AM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
In "The Sound of Her Voice", the Defiant struggled to increase speed past warp 9.0, hitting structural limits that never bothered the other hero ships at those speeds yet. That seems to match the "too powerful engines threatened to tear the ship apart" thing that Sisko talked about in the introductory episode for the DS9 hero ship.

Otherwise, DS9 tended to speak of "maximum warp" rather than specific warp factors, but the writers did appear to hold on to the concept of there being something fishy about the propulsion system till the bitter end.

Timo Saloniemi

Mage January 2 2013 09:53 AM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7476529)
In "The Sound of Her Voice", the Defiant struggled to increase speed past warp 9.0, hitting structural limits that never bothered the other hero ships at those speeds yet. That seems to match the "too powerful engines threatened to tear the ship apart" thing that Sisko talked about in the introductory episode for the DS9 hero ship.

Otherwise, DS9 tended to speak of "maximum warp" rather than specific warp factors, but the writers did appear to hold on to the concept of there being something fishy about the propulsion system till the bitter end.

Timo Saloniemi

That's right, forgot about that part.

jpch January 2 2013 05:11 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
The Intrepid Class was the Fastest and the most advanced ship,if they deployed it along the Sovereign the war would have been over a lot faster :P.

In First Contact,the Enterprise-E displayed amazing firepower something not rivaled by any other ship,and was also referenced as the most advanced Starship in the Fleet.

In many episodes,to name some ''Flesh and blood'',''Void'',''Dark Frontier'',''Dragons Teeth''...Voyager was seen firing 3 phaser arrays at the same time,Firing 6 torpedoes in 1.5 sec from the fwrd launchers,moving around at speeds of at least 5 times the Galaxy Class...Voyager made circles around a massive Borg tactical Cube many times.

A Fleet of 5 Defiants (for Damage) 3 Intrepids (for Dmg and support) 2 Sovereigns (for fleet command and Tanking) would defeat a far larger fleet with relative ease...considering that both of Voyager and Ent-E had the most durable shields of all the ships of the franchise.

Timo January 2 2013 05:30 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Quote:

The Intrepid Class was the Fastest and the most advanced ship
...But whether she had any respectable firepower, we don't really know. Her phaser beams may have been wimpy, kickass, or anything in between, as we only know their rate of fire and nothing else.

Quote:

In First Contact,the Enterprise-E displayed amazing firepower something not rivaled by any other ship
How so? After Picard gave inside information on where and when to fire, every ship type seemed to contribute more or less equally. The Akira pumped out more torpedo fire, the Norway fired longer phaser pulses, and so on.

And being "advanced" is just another name for being "untested"...

Quote:

Voyager made circles around a massive Borg tactical Cube many times.
But to no avail, because there isn't a backside to a Borg Cube. :devil:

In general, maneuvering doesn't appear to make much of a difference in Trek fights.

Quote:

both of Voyager and Ent-E had the most durable shields of all the ships of the franchise
What was durable about the shields of the E-E? They went down in battle fairly quickly in ST:NEM, doing no better than their Romulan counterparts. They played no role in ST:INS, as the Briar Patch negated shields for all the fighting sides. And in ST:FC, they deflected a single Borg attempt at locking a tractor beam. None of that appears particularly impressive, in comparison with, say, the shields of Kirk's TOS ship, or those of a runabout.

...Now, a fleet of runabouts would probably defeat anything, if the durability of those things against the worst the Dominion can muster in "The Die is Cast" or "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River" is any indication! ;)

Timo Saloniemi

jpch January 2 2013 05:57 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7477315)
Quote:

The Intrepid Class was the Fastest and the most advanced ship
...But whether she had any respectable firepower, we don't really know. Her phaser beams may have been wimpy, kickass, or anything in between, as we only know their rate of fire and nothing else.

Quote:

In First Contact,the Enterprise-E displayed amazing firepower something not rivaled by any other ship
How so? After Picard gave inside information on where and when to fire, every ship type seemed to contribute more or less equally. The Akira pumped out more torpedo fire, the Norway fired longer phaser pulses, and so on.

And being "advanced" is just another name for being "untested"...

Quote:

Voyager made circles around a massive Borg tactical Cube many times.
But to no avail, because there isn't a backside to a Borg Cube. :devil:

In general, maneuvering doesn't appear to make much of a difference in Trek fights.

Quote:

both of Voyager and Ent-E had the most durable shields of all the ships of the franchise
What was durable about the shields of the E-E? They went down in battle fairly quickly in ST:NEM, doing no better than their Romulan counterparts. They played no role in ST:INS, as the Briar Patch negated shields for all the fighting sides. And in ST:FC, they deflected a single Borg attempt at locking a tractor beam. None of that appears particularly impressive, in comparison with, say, the shields of Kirk's TOS ship, or those of a runabout.

...Now, a fleet of runabouts would probably defeat anything, if the durability of those things against the worst the Dominion can muster in "The Die is Cast" or "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River" is any indication! ;)

Timo Saloniemi


There is no reference on any series or comparison of how powerful a phaser beam is or even its yield...Phaser are determined by the model creators,like Rick Sternbach who said that the Galaxy and Intrepid have mark 10 phasers(something very poweful).
so having the ability to fire many arrays at the same time is clearly a sign of power compared to the Akira who has just 2 or 3 phaser arrays or the Norway and Sabre.

The Akira did not do anything special it fired a respectable spread of 4 photon torpedoes that is it,the Sovereign and the Intrepid can Fire a lot more as seen on screen.

Speed does influence the balance of the battle,the Uss Defiant survived against a relatively stronger overall vessel like the Neg'hvar or Dominion warships thanks to its speed.

The Ent-E suffered large amount of beating at the hands of the Scimitar and its shields were durable,just count how many torpedoes and disruptor blast the shields survived that was impressive the same for Voyager against relatively stronger vessels.
i also want to add that the Intrepid has multi-spectrum shielding stated in season 6 of Voyager and multi-phasic as well stated in season 2,that type of shielding greatly improved performance in battles.

Timo January 2 2013 06:07 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Quote:

so having the ability to fire many arrays at the same time is clearly a sign of power
Naah. All beams are not created equal, or a Danube class runabout (with something like half a dozen confirmed and half a dozen suspected phaser emitters) would seriously outgun an Akira (with indeed just three known strips).

The Voyager is a small ship, so odds are that her phasers are also small...

Quote:

the Uss Defiant survived against a relatively stronger overall vessel like the Neg'hvar or Dominion warships thanks to its speed.
...Which was established to be less than that of other Starfleet vessels!

The Defiant didn't really get hit less than other ship types. She just shrugged off the hits when they fell.

Quote:

The Ent-E suffered large amount of beating at the hands of the Scimitar and its shields were durable,just count how many torpedoes and disruptor blast the shields survived that was impressive
Compared to what? Kirk's old ship was basically immune to a similar rate of fire in "Errand of Mercy". Picard's first Enterprise had her shields fall down to X percent often enough, but basically never had them collapse altogether piecemeal the way the bow and then the ventral shields of the E-E did.

Quote:

the same for Voyager against relatively stronger vessels.
The Voyager operated against a different set of vessels from any other Starfleet combatant, so comparisons are basically impossible to make.

Quote:

i also want to add that the Intrepid has multi-spectrum shielding stated in season 6 of Voyager and multi-phasic as well stated in season 2,that type of shielding greatly improved performance in battles.
In what observable way? And what makes you think any old Miranda would not have the exact same sort of shielding?

Timo Saloniemi

jpch January 2 2013 06:27 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7477465)
Quote:

so having the ability to fire many arrays at the same time is clearly a sign of power
Naah. All beams are not created equal, or a Danube class runabout (with something like half a dozen confirmed and half a dozen suspected phaser emitters) would seriously outgun an Akira (with indeed just three known strips).

The Voyager is a small ship, so odds are that her phasers are also small...

Quote:

the Uss Defiant survived against a relatively stronger overall vessel like the Neg'hvar or Dominion warships thanks to its speed.
...Which was established to be less than that of other Starfleet vessels!

The Defiant didn't really get hit less than other ship types. She just shrugged off the hits when they fell.



Compared to what? Kirk's old ship was basically immune to a similar rate of fire in "Errand of Mercy". Picard's first Enterprise had her shields fall down to X percent often enough, but basically never had them collapse altogether piecemeal the way the bow and then the ventral shields of the E-E did.

Quote:

the same for Voyager against relatively stronger vessels.
The Voyager operated against a different set of vessels from any other Starfleet combatant, so comparisons are basically impossible to make.

Quote:

i also want to add that the Intrepid has multi-spectrum shielding stated in season 6 of Voyager and multi-phasic as well stated in season 2,that type of shielding greatly improved performance in battles.
In what observable way? And what makes you think any old Miranda would not have the exact same sort of shielding?

Timo Saloniemi

I noticed you criticise and refuse the information without giving anything else in return.

Are you implying that a Miranda Class or a Constitution has the same Shields as the Intrepid or Sovereign?!! :p

ok lets compare the same situations with different type of ships, the older Miranda,Excelsior,Ambassador battled a Borg cube at Wolf 359 and were all destroyed and the cube suffered some damage,their inferior technology was not enough.

In the battle of sector 01 the newer more advanced ships like the Akira,Sovereign etc...were able to hold the line and the Borg cube was extremely damaged even before Picard interfered. The technologically more advanced vessels have better shields and weapons allowing some of them to survive the assault.

:rolleyes: don't tell me they have the same shields or tactical power.

The Defiant did avoid most hits it did not shrug anything off,Defensively it an inferior vessel then the Galaxy Intrepid Sovereign Akira. but firepower wise it is extremely powerful superior to some others.

Mark_Nguyen January 2 2013 06:36 PM

Re: Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War
 
Or upgradeable to do the same. For that matter, even if both Galaxy and Intrepid have Type X phasers, capable of outputting X terawatts (or whatever) of power, who's to say the Intrepid has that kind of juice to dump into the phasers anyway? The Galaxy may have more raw power to use for phasers or shields or whatever. Same speakers in the system, more juice in the bigger D batteries, if you'll pardon the pun.

Mark


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