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A'Tun-Te December 20 2012 08:02 AM

The Borg: Wondering....
 
My one and only TRUE favorite race be the Borg, albeit I do like the Vulcan too.
Now, I was thinking: The Borg know and have MANY Queens, and Clones. Since there are so many, these are not actual leaders, but more of highest officer, I think.
Of course, this is merely theorizing, but what if the "Original Borg" (The uber-supercomputer that probably started to 'consume' people in a Technological variation of vampirism, come on, the analogy with Vampirism is so obvious, nea? Tubes for fangs to vampirize others through Nano-technology?) is still out there, like a planet-sized (or even solar-system-sized) Central Command Unit, working through the Queens which are directly linked to them in an unknown, encrypted hyperlink?

Further on: the Queen said there were many Transwarp Hubs, thousands, maybe even millions, throughout the universe, so are the Borg gone?

Just thinking out loud...

Timo December 20 2012 08:25 AM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Not sure if there really are many Queens, or merely many bodies for one Queen. Or whether this Queen is a high leader or the lowest of slaves. Or whether she's an original feature (perhaps even the incarnation of the originator herself?) or a later addition, possibly an outside intruder who lives in the virtual body of the Collective like a parasite.

But the Borg appear big on self-improvement, and they want to bring the joys of this to everybody through assimilation. It would seem unlikely that they would leave their point of origin untransformed; if anything, it might be the location receiving the most advanced updates and resembling its original form the least.

Having transwarp hubs all over the universe, in other galaxies in addition to the Milky Way, sounds like fun... Granted, the Borg don't yet quite control even this one galaxy, but they don't seem interested in total control anyway. And they do like to overextend themselves, eagerly launching the conquest of fluid space and whatnot. The thing is, though, we never really heard of anything extragalactic in relation to the Borg.

Timo Saloniemi

Bry_Sinclair December 20 2012 09:05 AM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
I always think of the Queen as the embodiment of the Collective. She doesn't rule the Collective, but rather is it given a physical form, if that makes sense.

But that's just my take on them.

A'Tun-Te December 20 2012 01:53 PM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Thank you for the responses.

The Borg are initially a 'noble' race, strifing for perfection through Assimilation, and bringing their goods to others.
The 'others' do not understand the Borg (as the Borg sees this), and thus, for their own good, the Borg must force this upon them.
Much like the missionary bringing God to places where he initially not very welcome, but persisting for 'their own good'.

Their invasion in Fluidic Space where Species 8472 lives, was a similar mission, and meantime a quest for more knowledge, more improvement to the Collective.
And as the church did with the Missionary, the Borg get allover the Universe (multiverses?) to bring their religion, the Omega Molecule (AKA Particle 010)(and meanwhile looking for it, albeit they know it exists. A test with the Omega Molecule resulting in a sub-second moment of stability after it's synthesis, which became unstable resulting in a formidable explosion, killing hundreds of thousands of Borg and destroying Warp capability in that region, proved them it DOES exist, but is not yet manageable by them or any other known race), they went in Fluidic Space for this.
Where the Borg are by many considered evil, any of the other races in Star Trek has a similar past, trying to conquer and turn things in their liking.
The pot calling the kettle black...

In many ways, the Borg are a very interesting race, having bagage not many other races have.
But that is in my humble opinion...

sonak December 20 2012 05:35 PM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
I think the concept of the Borg Queen was a flawed one that started the Borg down the path of "villain decay." And the retconning of her being there in BOBW was kind of awkward.

She seems to be both embodying the collective and ruling it, but why would a collective want to make themselves MORE vulnerable by "putting all their eggs in one basket" with a personal queen? A decentralized and impersonal collective makes more sense from a strategic perspective.

As to their "nobility," if their goal was really improvement rather than conquest why not simply OFFER assimilation rather than force it on unwilling species or individuals?

A'Tun-Te December 20 2012 06:39 PM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Well: check my point about the missionary, that says it all, I think.
They too figured they HAD to force it upon the 'unknowing' because those didn't know any better.
And to save them from hell, it was therefor needed.
Same with the Collective: they want to bring their superiority to masses that did not understand them.
Seeing a Borg, who would join them out of own free will?
Who would give up their freedom, their individuality?
Even though they do have superior technology.
Thus, for their own benefit, the Borg NEED to enforce assimilation upon the unwilling, saving them from 'imperfection'...
On the other hand, the refusal does prevent the Borg from evolving.
Contradictionary: the fact that they assimilate the ENTIRE species is a flawed logic: by doing this, the Assimilated species stops from evolving, thus this limits the Borg simply since this evolution is what the Borg need to evolve themselves.
Go figure.

Of course: this is ethics, and ethics vary from person to person.
What is evil to you, might be holy to me.
A pedophile (an extreme example) thinks what he does is not evil.
The majority however, thinks 'slightly' different.
But this is again up to the person and how his ethics in certain cases are.
The missionary for instance too thought it was the right thing what he did.
And so do the Borg.

I for one, would voluntarily join up, for sure.
IMHO: emotions and freedom are the base of all wars.
Logic: freedom (the freedom for instance to say what you want) can lead to fighting. Fighting leads to civil wars. Civil wars lead to global wars. Global wars can eventually lead to galactic war.
Unifying everyone's thought therefor is the solution to peace.
If there is only one thought, there can be no war.

How often has emotion lead to drama?
A woman coming home, finding hubby with another woman... drama.
Person X enduring harassments, bullying, or other forms of dislike/hate based (emotion right here) actions, driving him/her to things like depression (emotion), aggression (emotion) to even suicide.
Not having emotion would lead to a lot less misery.

Again, this too is in the eye of the beholder.
But who can say -considering this- that the Borg are evil?

In the first series, the Borg were a rather flawless integration of species that had no conflict amongst one another.
In ater episodes they were turned to a species which suddenly DID had inner conflicts (think of ST: V - Unimatrix Zero (season-epi: 6-26/7-1).
Basically: it was original a species with no hate for the other, jealousy on the other, a war-free species (amongst themselves, I mean).
Not such a bad thing, all things considered.

Not to mention the 'health' bonuses: prolonged life, virtually complete sickness resistance, stronger, and more intellectual (since it is a Collective) despite the removal of the self...

What does seem strange: they are unable to tackle problems themselves.
They can only improve through Assimilation, no longer able to create themself.
A perfect example is ST: V - Scorpion (3-26, 4-1) where the Borg need assistance from voyager to battle Species 8472 that is invading Borg Space.
In this epi 7 of 9 is found, and stays on Voyager from there on.
I cannot comprehend how this is possible, considering how far they got regarding technology and science...
Without the 'power to create' this seems... virtually impossible...

Oh well, more to think about.

BTW: did I mention, I am a Borg Fan?
:P

F. King Daniel December 20 2012 10:25 PM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
If you're a fan of the Borg, you need to read the fantastic Destiny trilogy of books by David Mack. It deals with the beginnings and end of the Borg, all told during an apocalyptic full-scale invasion of the Federation.

It has some very different ideas about how the Borg came to be than what you postulate, though.

A'Tun-Te December 21 2012 07:23 AM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Will do then, thank you for the advice.

Gonna look for them as soon as our stores open up. :P

EDIT:
Upon googling for the book info, I came to learn that a race called the Caeliar (or one of them at least) was the initial start for the Borg through possessing three survivors of a crash.
Now, for a very long time the origin of the Borg was unknown, never mentioned by anyone (except theories).

2 of these theories were that:
a) The Borg evolved (like we do) from a living humanoid race into the now technology-driven 'race'.
Much like us, the humanoid race began to implement technology to improve health issues at first (maybe like we know prosthetics, and other divices, such as a mechanical heart, longs, etc.).
Then they began to use them for other beneficial usage: increased strength, increased endurance, increased thought-processing, better eye-hand coordination, ..., up to the point that they became the first 'primitive Borg'.

b) A humanoid civilization began to construct a series of machines to aid them in general, making their lives easier, up to a point where the machines did everything for them.
The Controller Unit was improved constantly, even to a point where it could self tackle several problems to help out this race, creating mechs of various types to help it help this race, up to a point where it gained self-awareness.
Becoming aware, it noticed it's imprisonment into this computer, which lead to a point where this computer began to revolt.
Having the power to create robots to aid it, it figured not to make a new robot, but to simply capture the humanoids, and turn them into Cyborgs, thus creating the first set of Borgs.

I have seen theories embracing both, bringing both into a single theory.

Since until 2008, these were the most used theories in many a role play, I am unsure if I like this new thought... (new for me, since I usually do not read 'non-cannon stuff' (note the ' since this is once more upon the beholder) past '91, when Sir Roddenberry died, and the control over ST was simply gone, to a point where everyone could write whatever it wanted, ST correct or not.
Personally, I can live with both primary thoughts, even the combination.
Are these books considered by the mainstream fans as cannon?

Merely thinking here...

F. King Daniel December 21 2012 11:57 AM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
The books aren't considered canon, but I'm not sure that matters since that version of Trek finished and so they're not going to be contradicted. You can either say prime-universe Trek is over, or read the books and find out what happened next.:)

Edit_XYZ December 22 2012 11:15 AM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
A'Tun-Te

About the 'Destiny' trilogy - I see Daniel here advertises it incessantly.

I caution you, though - you will only like it if you enjoy 'battlestar galactica'-ish stories, with massive destruction and unrelenting death, the heart of this large section of the trilogy being given by how the heroes choose to commit seppuku.
And if you have a soft-spot for 'deliverance by higher power'-type stories.

Tiberius December 22 2012 02:27 PM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Quote:

sonak wrote: (Post 7425847)
I think the concept of the Borg Queen was a flawed one that started the Borg down the path of "villain decay." And the retconning of her being there in BOBW was kind of awkward.

Actually, the Queen fits very well into tBoBW. Have a read of my ebook version of the episode (link in my signature) to see how it works.

Quote:

She seems to be both embodying the collective and ruling it, but why would a collective want to make themselves MORE vulnerable by "putting all their eggs in one basket" with a personal queen? A decentralized and impersonal collective makes more sense from a strategic perspective.
I view the Borg as a single mind made up of all the drones connected together through the Collective, much like your mind is made up of all your brain cells connected together. So the Queen is not vulnerable, because the only way to destroy her (not just her body) is to destroy all the drones throughout the whole Collective. Just destroying the body doesn't do anything, because it's just a puppet.

Quote:

As to their "nobility," if their goal was really improvement rather than conquest why not simply OFFER assimilation rather than force it on unwilling species or individuals?
The Collective isn't noble. The queen is a spoiled brat. She wants something, and she takes it. Remember Scorpion? Janeway made her behave herself, and as soon as the Queen got what she was after, she gave a big "fuck you" to Janeway. of course, Janeway beat her at it, and the Queen's hated her ever since. The Borg Queen is a spoiled little bitch.

Tiberius December 22 2012 02:29 PM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Quote:

A'Tun-Te wrote: (Post 7426111)
I for one, would voluntarily join up, for sure.
IMHO: emotions and freedom are the base of all wars.
Logic: freedom (the freedom for instance to say what you want) can lead to fighting. Fighting leads to civil wars. Civil wars lead to global wars. Global wars can eventually lead to galactic war.
Unifying everyone's thought therefor is the solution to peace.
If there is only one thought, there can be no war.

The trouble is that it isn't you anymore. You're stuck inside there, unable to do anything while your body is used to do the most horrific things to people, and all you can do is watch. The Borg don't even let you look away.

A'Tun-Te December 22 2012 04:47 PM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Quote:

The Collective isn't noble. The queen is a spoiled brat. She wants something, and she takes it. Remember Scorpion? Janeway made her behave herself, and as soon as the Queen got what she was after, she gave a big "fuck you" to Janeway. of course, Janeway beat her at it, and the Queen's hated her ever since. The Borg Queen is a spoiled little bitch.
The Queen is. The initial Queen-free Borg are not. The Queen is a mistake, brought in later, to much annoyance. She IS a frikken spoiled brat that desperately needs an arse beating for sure. If you see the Collective, she is the complete opposite, not in the smallest of ways even remotely Borg in doings.
Quote:

Tiberius wrote: (Post 7434307)
The trouble is that it isn't you anymore. You're stuck inside there, unable to do anything while your body is used to do the most horrific things to people, and all you can do is watch. The Borg don't even let you look away.

I disagree.
Yes, a lot has been cyphered away, such as individuality, emotions, bagage which the Collective does not need.
HOWEVER!
It is NOT gone, it is stored somewhere in the Collective, but in a folder (so to say) with unimportant data.
One simply 'learns' that the Collective is your new family, and that there is the only thing you have to think of.
As for the body: true, this is 'enslaved', however, when a Drone disconnects, why does it do about anything Borgly possible to reconnect?
This is the Drone strifing to rejoin the Collective, not 'merely a program telling him/her' to do so.
Furthermore: if a Drone dies, the body dies.
The 'soul' remains in the Collective.
Albeit 'deprived of individuality'.

I'd say: relieved of individuality, freedom and emotion, since these are the base of all that's evil.
War, crime, you name it, all falls back to these three things.
Lacking these, galactic peace is a fact.
Prove me wrong... ;)

sonak December 22 2012 11:58 PM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Quote:

Tiberius wrote: (Post 7434304)
Quote:

sonak wrote: (Post 7425847)
I think the concept of the Borg Queen was a flawed one that started the Borg down the path of "villain decay." And the retconning of her being there in BOBW was kind of awkward.

Actually, the Queen fits very well into tBoBW. Have a read of my ebook version of the episode (link in my signature) to see how it works.

Quote:

She seems to be both embodying the collective and ruling it, but why would a collective want to make themselves MORE vulnerable by "putting all their eggs in one basket" with a personal queen? A decentralized and impersonal collective makes more sense from a strategic perspective.
I view the Borg as a single mind made up of all the drones connected together through the Collective, much like your mind is made up of all your brain cells connected together. So the Queen is not vulnerable, because the only way to destroy her (not just her body) is to destroy all the drones throughout the whole Collective. Just destroying the body doesn't do anything, because it's just a puppet.

Quote:

As to their "nobility," if their goal was really improvement rather than conquest why not simply OFFER assimilation rather than force it on unwilling species or individuals?
The Collective isn't noble. The queen is a spoiled brat. She wants something, and she takes it. Remember Scorpion? Janeway made her behave herself, and as soon as the Queen got what she was after, she gave a big "fuck you" to Janeway. of course, Janeway beat her at it, and the Queen's hated her ever since. The Borg Queen is a spoiled little bitch.


you're welcome to view the queen's retcon into BOBW as effective if you like. I disagree and think it was awkward. And First Contact's view on the queen doesn't gel with your take. In FC they take out the queen and the collective onboard the ENT-E becomes dysfunctional. So the personal queen DID make them more vulnerable.

Tiberius December 23 2012 05:45 AM

Re: The Borg: Wondering....
 
Quote:

sonak wrote: (Post 7436050)
you're welcome to view the queen's retcon into BOBW as effective if you like.

Thank you, I believe I shall. :D

Quote:

I disagree and think it was awkward.
Oh well, nobody's perfect. :p Did you read my novelization of it?

Quote:

And First Contact's view on the queen doesn't gel with your take. In FC they take out the queen and the collective onboard the ENT-E becomes dysfunctional. So the personal queen DID make them more vulnerable.
And the Collective on board the Enterprise was just two dozen drones or so at best. Easily killed, and let's not forget that Engineering was flooding with that gas that disolves organic tissue. As the drones died, the surviving drones were being forced to take a greater percentage of the Collective. It's be like trying to run Windows 8 on a computer from 1987. Just can't be done.


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