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-   -   Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out... (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=196702)

Ian Keldon December 9 2012 07:50 PM

Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
First, the trailer as shown can only be talking about Khan. Neither Gary Mitchel or Garth of Izar (the two leading challengers for the Big Bad spot apparently) match the attributes of the character depicted in the trailer.

This is how to make the Khan story work within the alt-history of the JJ-verse:

At some point prior to the first film, Khan is discovered by Captain Pike in cryonic hibernation. This allows the use of "Khan's vengence" as the through plot of the film as the voice-over indicates. The back story needn't go much beyond a basic "We found him. He tried to take over. We exiled/imprisoned him...."

Now, consider that the producers have been hinting at a significant death as a key piece of the film. The trailer seems to support this with the memorial service, et al. But, like everything else in the JJ-verse, there must be a twist to it. JJ wouldn't simply do a direct copy of "Wrath...", despite the scenes leaked in the Japanese trailer that would seem to indicate that he is.

However, there's a way to have it both ways:

Pike
is the one in the last part of the trailer (the "wall scene"), sacrificing his life to stop Khan. This would allow us to have our "Wrath..." visual tributes, be enough of a twist so as not to be a direct copy of "Wrath..." AND allow Pike to have a tragic fate just as Pike Prime did.

The "consoling" scene with Scotty and Uhura might argue against that (the obvious implication being that Spock is the one to die), BUT could still work in the context of Uhura grieving on Spock's behalf, or for Spock's pain at losing his mentor, Pike.

ralph December 9 2012 08:00 PM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Devin Faraci wrote in twitter, that Full STAR TREK trailer indicates hands against glass scene is actually Spock and Cumberbatch, not Spock and Pike.

Oso Blanco December 9 2012 08:13 PM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
I think the memorial service is for The Cumberbatch, who will turn out not to be as evil as everyone believes.

YellowSubmarine December 9 2012 08:43 PM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Quote:

Oso Blanco wrote: (Post 7372165)
I think the memorial service is for The Cumberbatch, who will turn out not to be as evil as everyone believes.

"Captain's log, stardate 1313.8. Add to official losses, Dr. Elizabeth Dehner. Be it noted she gave her life in performance of her duty. Lieutenant Commander Gary Mitchell. Same notation."

Ian Keldon December 9 2012 08:45 PM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Quote:

ralph wrote: (Post 7372126)
Devin Faraci wrote in twitter, that Full STAR TREK trailer indicates hands against glass scene is actually Spock and Cumberbatch, not Spock and Pike.

Not having seen the "full" trailer, I can't comment on what he has said or seen. I'm just going on what I have access to ATM (the teasers).

Admiral Buzzkill December 9 2012 10:11 PM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Nope.

3chordboy December 9 2012 10:19 PM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Quote:

ralph wrote: (Post 7372126)
Devin Faraci wrote in twitter, that Full STAR TREK trailer indicates hands against glass scene is actually Spock and Cumberbatch, not Spock and Pike.

yeah i'd go with that. looking at the hand in the green uniform it doesn't appear to be that of a 50/60-something like Pike

Temis the Vorta December 10 2012 02:42 AM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Quote:

At some point prior to the first film, Khan is discovered by Captain Pike in cryonic hibernation. This allows the use of "Khan's vengence" as the through plot of the film as the voice-over indicates. The back story needn't go much beyond a basic "We found him. He tried to take over. We exiled/imprisoned him...."
Problems:

1. No personal connection to Kirk, Spock or any other major character. Mitchell has a personal connection to Kirk, and Garth could too. Inventing a personal connection for Khan requires a convoluted backstory - he got unfrozen, then fell afoul of Kirk, then got imprisoned, and that doesn't even happen on screen? Sounds like you'd need a movie just to do the setup.

2. Why wold Khan wear a Starfleet uniform? For Mitchell and Garth, it's obvious.

3. Any canon character would need to be revamped to explain the Jedi powers, so that doesn't affect the odds of any charatcer one way or the other.

4. Mitchell and Garth are white, Khan is not. Cumby is the right race to play only two of those three. The name Khan also carries expectations that the character is nonwhite. Gary and Garth are as white as it gets.

To revise Khan to fit the needs of a summer popcorn movie would require the same revisions as Mitchell or Garth, but with more complications - how did he get unfrozen and into a Starfleet uniform? Therefore he is less optimal for a summer popcorn movie where explanations must be kept to the bare minimum so we can get to the damn splosions quickly vs the simpler characers who require less explanation.

I've been hoping it's Garth because Cumby would fit the role best, but he's more the right age for Mitchell, so I've pingponged back to the glowy eyed guy.

Ian Keldon December 10 2012 03:10 AM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Quote:

My Name Is Legion wrote: (Post 7372540)
Nope.

And your reasoning or evidence is?

Santa Kang December 10 2012 03:19 AM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Quote:

Vorta Claus wrote: (Post 7373860)

2. Why wold Khan wear a Starfleet uniform? For Mitchell and Garth, it's obvious.

He wore one in "Space Seed."

Quote:

4. Mitchell and Garth are white, Khan is not. Cumby is the right race to play only two of those three. The name Khan also carries expectations that the character is nonwhite. Gary and Garth are as white as it gets.

.
Are folks who's parents come from Spain considered white? I can never keep that straight. ;)

Ian Keldon December 10 2012 03:22 AM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Quote:

Vorta Claus wrote: (Post 7373860)
Problems:

1. No personal connection to Kirk, Spock or any other major character. Mitchell has a personal connection to Kirk, and Garth could too. Inventing a personal connection for Khan requires a convoluted backstory - he got unfrozen, then fell afoul of Kirk, then got imprisoned, and that doesn't even happen on screen? Sounds like you'd need a movie just to do the setup.

Who says it's a "personal connection"? The goal of the Big Bad in the trailer seems to be revenge on Earth/Starfleet, not any one person.

Again, the basic backstory can be told in 5 lines or less.

Quote:

2. Why wold Khan wear a Starfleet uniform? For Mitchell and Garth, it's obvious.
Same reason he wore one in Space Seed. He was issued a change of clothes from ship's stores. (Presuming that the thing he's shown wearing IS a starfleet uniform and that it is shown in the context of a flashback.

Quote:

3. Any canon character would need to be revamped to explain the Jedi powers, so that doesn't affect the odds of any charatcer one way or the other.
Khan is a genetically engineered super soldier like Captain America who has demonstrated similar physical prowess. Furthermore, Gary Mitchel would not need a gun, as the trailer Big Bad is seen to use.

Quote:

4. Mitchell and Garth are white, Khan is not. Cumby is the right race to play only two of those three. The name Khan also carries expectations that the character is nonwhite. Gary and Garth are as white as it gets.
Look up "Indo-Aryan" or "Indian Aryan" online. The Aryan bloodline originates FROM India.

http://www.indiamike.com/photopost/d.../kashmiris.jpg

http://www.fanoos.com/ia/aryan_vaid.jpg

Quote:

To revise Khan to fit the needs of a summer popcorn movie would require the same revisions as Mitchell or Garth, but with more complications - how did he get unfrozen
Again, 5 lines or less, basically: "We found him. We unfroze him. He tried to take my ship. We ended up exiling him."

Quote:

and into a Starfleet uniform?
Also already answered.

Quote:

Therefore he is less optimal for a summer popcorn movie where explanations must be kept to the bare minimum so we can get to the damn splosions quickly vs the simpler characers who require less explanation.
See above

Admiral Buzzkill December 10 2012 03:29 AM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Quote:

Santa Kang wrote: (Post 7373971)
Quote:

4. Mitchell and Garth are white, Khan is not. Cumby is the right race to play only two of those three. The name Khan also carries expectations that the character is nonwhite. Gary and Garth are as white as it gets.

.
Are folks who's parents come from Spain considered white? I can never keep that straight. ;)

Yeah, the notion that race has anything important to do with Khan is arrant nonsense.

Folks who develop "expectations" about people's backgrounds based on their surnames must live in a frequent state of surprise if not shock. :lol:

Robert_T_April December 10 2012 03:52 AM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
In response to your quote from the trailer:
"We found him. He tried to take over. We exiled/imprisoned him..."
That actually fits the backstory of Garth.
The race of "shape-shifters" gifted him with their ability to change form because he was so gravely injured, and could have in some way altered him mentally. He ended up turning on them and wanted to destroy them. Naturally his officers turned on him and Garth was inevitably imprisoned/exiled and later deemed insane by Starfleet.
So IMO this quote from the trailer more fits Garth...not Khan.

Samuel T. Cogley December 10 2012 03:59 AM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
Let's also not forget that Garth was a fairly lame character (with a pretty silly backstory) in a very bad third season episode of TOS, so unless the new writers have re-imagined the hell out of him, utilizing Garth as the main villain would be a very bad call.

Tosk December 10 2012 04:04 AM

Re: Ok, I think I have the trailer figured out...
 
No matter who the character is, they have clearly "re-imagined the hell out of them". No one is a clear match, hence all these damn threads.

And good! 'cause what would be the point in telling a story that has already been told? Surely we want new stories, even if they take elements from TOS.

For my money, Garth is the best candidate for a new take because his episode was lame. Whereas they would have to compete with good material doing Khan or Mitchell, with Garth the only way is up. :)


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