The Trek BBS

The Trek BBS (http://www.trekbbs.com/index.php)
-   Trek Tech (http://www.trekbbs.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14)
-   -   How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federation? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=195817)

Brainsucker December 2 2012 02:27 AM

How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federation?
 
Like what the title suggest. How could the Dominion War not effect the economy of United Federation of Planets?

First, what happen to a war? specially in a galactic war like that?

Planetary bombardment, convoy Interception, mass killing, Mass conscription, etc, etc, etc. And all of them effect the economy of the participant of war. Specially when the Federation is in the losing side. Although they haven't currency, but they still need resource. And resource is the most expensive things in a war.

So even with the Federation win at the end of the war, shouldn't the fight effect their economy?

What do you think?

jayrath December 2 2012 03:31 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
I am completely unfamiliar with the Dominon War. I lost interest early. But whoever said there was no economic impact? Anyway, that would pale in contrast to the lives lost.

Tosk December 2 2012 04:33 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
I highly doubt there was conscription.

Brainsucker December 2 2012 09:26 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
Even without mass conscription, the economy of colonies around the battlefield should be hampered, because the citizens at those places would left their daily job to manned the defense parameter. And that alone would greatly effect the economy

Plus conquering a planet need more than just 100.000 soldiers. They need millions. So how could there is no conscription? Unless the Dominion war is not as big as we think, and there is no planetary siege at all. But... a war of a galactic scale? What do you think about it? Even world war II push the US government to conscript their people. And it is only a planetary scale of war. Not a galactic one.

C.E. Evans December 2 2012 02:28 PM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
While the effect of the war would be considerable to the Federation, I think that the Federation has the resources to bounce back within a few years, with Starfleet noticeably longer unless it undergoes a massive shipbuilding campaign.

MacLeod December 2 2012 02:49 PM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
You don't need to occupy a planet, you can just skip it unless there is something of value you need there.

Also conquered worlds might not give too much resistance if you had actually liberated them Cardassian/Dominion oppression.

Deks December 2 2012 03:15 PM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
Quote:

Brainsucker wrote: (Post 7332778)
Like what the title suggest. How could the Dominion War not effect the economy of United Federation of Planets?

First, what happen to a war? specially in a galactic war like that?

Planetary bombardment, convoy Interception, mass killing, Mass conscription, etc, etc, etc. And all of them effect the economy of the participant of war. Specially when the Federation is in the losing side. Although they haven't currency, but they still need resource. And resource is the most expensive things in a war.

So even with the Federation win at the end of the war, shouldn't the fight effect their economy?

What do you think?

Any particular reason it should?
The Federation is supposed to be an interstellar organization spanning 8000 ly's (from on-screen evidence alone).

Without currency/money of any kind, they would focus on technology and resources and what is achievable in a sustainable capacity with maximum efficiency and is in line with their latest scientific knowledge.

If you want to explain things in a equitable capacity, it would stand to reason that the Federation employs high levels of automation (negating the actual requirement for Humonaoids to work - unless they choose to).

In Trek, most of the combat scenarios involved taking out ship production facilities, resource production (such as Ketracel white on the Dominion side), etc.

Resources would be needed yes, but if you have an interstellar culture like the Federation which basically employs the notion of 'sustainability'... they would concentrate on using resources which can readily be produced in abundance.

Most of what Federation ships use for construction is Duranium for the hull.
I would surmise that these materials would have to be reproducible as a synthetic substance in abundance.
Dilithium crystals might be the only thing needed that cannot be synthesized... but we don't know for sure whether the Federation was able to create synthetic dilithium crystals by the 24th century.
We do know they also need Deuterium for 'fuel' (which really doesn't make any sense - but the stuff is basically 'everywhere' and it would be rather idiotic that a culture as advanced as the Federation wouldn't be able to synthesize it artificially).
The Feds can employ a number of highly sophisticated technology in the late 24th century even during war-times.

Besides, most of the 'core-planets' were not really feeling the effects of the war (except perhaps Betazed, and that 1 attack on Earth by the Breen).

The Federation supposedly has 150 member planets.
Each of those Solar systems would probably have massive amounts of ship production facilities, and various constructs that should/could easily produce more than enough.

The supply lines of certain resources might be a problem, but as I said... most of what the Federation needs could be made with the resources/technology they already have.

Replicators need only energy to work.
Create giant replicator-yards near a star, use the solar power for energy, and replicate away.
Automate the heck out of everything using robotics, and those highly advanced AI's (ships, shuttles, etc. can be automated completely).

I don't think the Federation would depend on any specific system for resources.
Each system would have to be self-sustaining - unless they are in the early stages of development (and this would mostly apply to developing colonies - but not mostly developed star systems).

Jimi_James December 2 2012 05:22 PM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
Deks makes many good points.

On a planet by planet basis, yes there would be some effect. But the Federation is massive, pulling in resources from 150 member worlds, who knows how many colonies, as well as allies that aren't even part of the Federation but simply maintain trading agreements.

And realistically the Federation wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket. They would be set up to the point that even if the Dominion had taken Earth and Mars, and destroyed Utopia Planitia, the war would have kept going.

As far as conscription and conquering a planet, by the time the Federation was in a position to start taking Dominion held worlds, the Klingon and the Romulan empires were also fighting with them. So while most of the fighting seemed to be taking place in the Alpha quadrant, the Federation wasn't shouldering the burden of the entire war and taking a planet wouldn't have been their sole responsibility. Raising a force to take a planet wouldn't have been a problem for three quadrant spanning powers that likely each have populations ranging in the trillions.

I seriously doubt Starfleet had to operate any sort of conscription service. I could see them offering some sort of basic training incentive program though. Something along the lines of singing up for a standard tour of duty as an engineer, medic, or security crewmen (some type of position that doesn't require the full Academy run) and when you're tour is up, you get a guaranteed placement at the Academy, forgoing the usual entrance exam.

Brainsucker December 3 2012 03:15 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
well that is the problem. Yes, Federation has the automaton technology, replicator, etc. In peace time, they are abundant. But in a war, with massive planetary bombardment, convoy interception, etc, such luxury will be vanished. A dominion massive planetary bombardment could decrease the 24th century colony into stone age. And if that happen, how do you operate the "only god know how to create" Replicator Technology.

Even an idiot know that power supply, planetary infrastructures, freighter convoys, resource storage, etc are the first priority target in battle. And let we see the fact, that in 20th century only, a city bombardment could destroy everything. So how could the Dominion fleet with 24th century technology couldn't reduce a colony into stone age? And with the planetary power supply being bombarded by Dominion, how could repilicators work?

And let see the fact. Federation were lost. Dominion Force move deeply into their territory. Even it doesn't reach Earth, Vulcan, and Andoria, it's reach Betazed (if it's canonical). So we can assume that at least 1/3 of Federation territory has become the battlefield.

Say replicator can create anything just with Dilithium crystals (although I think that it is bullshit). But even with only Dilithium Crystal as the resource, they still need mines to extract the resource. And what happen if those mines got bombed by Dominion Forces?

And about 150 worlds..., we all know about supply and demand rules. What happen if 1/3 of those worlds being bombarded, hundreds of dilithium crystal mines being razed, millions of power supply and hundreds of freighters being destroyed? It will disturb the balance. The supplies won't be able to meet the demand, and the economy of the Federation of Planets will be disturbed if not crippled. And to say being "Disturbed" is already being very optimistic, because mostly it would cripple them good.

Well... unless Dominion are more than idiot, or Dominion War is actually ships shooting the other ships, and doesn't involve planetary assault at all.

E-DUB December 3 2012 05:03 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
I don't know if any of you are following the lit-verse, but there was recently an "all-out" confrontation between the Feds and the Borg, with much of the attendent issues you talk about, economic problems, refugees, etc.

Brainsucker December 3 2012 05:46 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
what is lit-verse?

Timo December 3 2012 12:07 PM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
The sum total of the novels, basically ("literature"), although sometimes the comics count, too.

As far as onscreen Trek is concerned, there weren't many instances of planetary conquest or destruction. A planet left unconquered or undestroyed would still be rendered irrelevant if no starships could sail to or fro; the industries could no longer serve the overall war effort in any way.

Would convoy interception be a factor in a war that supposedly involved "fronts"? The only things being shipped along vulnerable lines would be those going to the fighting forces; without cloaks, the Jem'Hadar wouldn't be in a position to hurt the internal connections of the UFP.

In general, it doesn't seem as if the UFP would have major industrial assets on the outer fringes; colonies appear to be founded as tiny agricultural communities, and only gradually grow from that. At any point of time, the Federation would be a self-sustaining entity from the inside, with a shell of tentative colonies, and hitting that shell would not reduce the self-sustenance. Nor would hitting the outer layers of the core necessarily mean that the inner layers would become less self-sustaining, considering that each layer supposedly added its own self-sustenance eventually. Sol alone could probably keep up the fight in direct proportion to the volume remaining under its control (that is, if the Sol system is one millionth of effective UFP volume, then Earth fights back with one millionth of the economic resources, not one trillionth), rather than face a sudden drop in fighting ability when a key offworld location was lost.

Of course, the UFP no doubt trades extensively with its near and far neighbors - possibly more extensively than, say, the Romulans or the Klingons do. An explicit example is Rutia from TNG "High Ground". Severing of trade routes might have an economic effect, then. But would that be more on the wealthy UFP, or on its isolated individual trade partners?

Timo Saloniemi

Brainsucker December 4 2012 12:11 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
So basically the war like Dominion War won't effect any major power economy in the galaxy. Both Dominion and Federation can war forever if there is no worm hole that limit their access?

Unicron December 4 2012 12:27 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
Quote:

Deks wrote: (Post 7334239)

The Federation supposedly has 150 member planets.
Each of those Solar systems would probably have massive amounts of ship production facilities, and various constructs that should/could easily produce more than enough.

That assumes that all 150 members (which one might argue are only major members, and that there are others like Bajor that have a more probationary/potential status) have equal resources, and I'm not sure that would be the case. Nor am I sure they'd all have massive facilities even if they had resource equality as a benefit of membership. Different regions are going to have different specialties, and it wouldn't make as much sense outside a wartime setting for all of them to producing the same amount unless it was a necessity.

Quote:

Replicators need only energy to work.
Create giant replicator-yards near a star, use the solar power for energy, and replicate away.
Automate the heck out of everything using robotics, and those highly advanced AI's (ships, shuttles, etc. can be automated completely).
No, replicators use transporter technology to alter the form of matter. They don't simply create matter out of energy. That was one of the reasons the TNG TM talked about the idea of huge fleet scaled replicators not being practical. They would need templates to provide the matter and the energy involved presumably wouldn't be a fair trade compared to just replicating a meal. They're also stated to be unable to create substances like gold or dilithium, because those substances have very complex templates. Same reason they can't create living beings, although the aliens in "Allegiance" had replication technology that bypassed this problem.

C.E. Evans December 4 2012 12:42 AM

Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio
 
Quote:

Brainsucker wrote: (Post 7341814)
So basically the war like Dominion War won't effect any major power economy in the galaxy. Both Dominion and Federation can war forever if there is no worm hole that limit their access?

I wouldn't say that at all. No nation can fight a full-out war forever. Even if one conflict lasted for decades, eventually, one side will suffer more losses--if only in lives--than its leaders consider acceptable/feasible for victory and surrender, or both sides will come to a territorial agreement to end prolonged hostilities. That's probably how the Romulan Wars ended, IMO.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.