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Captain McBain November 13 2012 02:27 AM

Kirk quote
 
When Kirk said that "Out of all the people I've known, Spock was the most human," or words to that effect, wasn't that pretty ridiculous?

I mean, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, etc., all have shown a wide range of emotions, and Spock 99.9999% of the time was stone-faced.

Yes, Kirk apparently wanted to say something memorable at Spock's funeral, but seriously, that kind of exaggeration is way over the top. I bet Sulu and Chekov were rolling their eyes when Kirk said it.

Admiral_Sisko November 13 2012 03:38 AM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

Captain McBain wrote: (Post 7247230)
When Kirk said that "Out of all the people I've known, Spock was the most human," or words to that effect, wasn't that pretty ridiculous?

I mean, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, etc., all have shown a wide range of emotions, and Spock 99.9999% of the time was stone-faced.

Yes, Kirk apparently wanted to say something memorable at Spock's funeral, but seriously, that kind of exaggeration is way over the top. I bet Sulu and Chekov were rolling their eyes when Kirk said it.

The point Kirk was trying to make was that Spock always aspired to be more than he was, and that in choosing to sacrifice himself to save his friends and crew, he demonstrated unparalleled courage and compassion for the people with whom he served. Courage, compassion, and the desire to better oneself are human values, and Kirk believed that his friend embodied these values more than any other individual he'd encountered.

R. Star November 13 2012 03:59 AM

Re: Kirk quote
 
I liked it. Even if Spock would've said, "I find that remark... insulting" if he was there. :p

But Mr Sisko said it very well. Spock's final act of self-sacrifice captured the nobility of his spirit very well.

SchwEnt November 13 2012 04:20 AM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Yes, of course it was appropriate and correct.

Kirk wasn't talking about Spock's being human versus McCoy and Scotty in terms of stone-faced versus smiling and crying.

There's more to being human than emotional displays. There are acts of humanity, like sacrificing yourself for your friends. No greater love than to lay down one's life for your friends.

Captain McBain November 13 2012 01:17 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
I guess I'll have to disagree with you guys. There may be more to being human than emotional displays, but emotional displays are a huge part of being human. For Kirk to say that Spock was the most human, despite rarely showing emotion, seems ridiculous.

It'd be like Picard insisting that Data was the most human individual he knew, or Sisko saying that Odo was the most human. It'd make for a nice speech, but it seems to lack in truth.

SmoothieX November 13 2012 01:37 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

The point Kirk was trying to make was that Spock always aspired to be more than he was, and that in choosing to sacrifice himself to save his friends and crew, he demonstrated unparalleled courage and compassion for the people with whom he served. Courage, compassion, and the desire to better oneself are human values, and Kirk believed that his friend embodied these values more than any other individual he'd encountered.
I agree and you said it better than I would have. :techman:

marksound November 13 2012 02:44 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

Captain McBain wrote: (Post 7249024)
I guess I'll have to disagree with you guys. There may be more to being human than emotional displays, but emotional displays are a huge part of being human. For Kirk to say that Spock was the most human, despite rarely showing emotion, seems ridiculous.

It'd be like Picard insisting that Data was the most human individual he knew, or Sisko saying that Odo was the most human. It'd make for a nice speech, but it seems to lack in truth.

Disagree if you want, but it don't make you right. :lol:

Captain McBain November 13 2012 06:17 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

Carcazoid wrote: (Post 7249183)
Quote:

Captain McBain wrote: (Post 7249024)
I guess I'll have to disagree with you guys. There may be more to being human than emotional displays, but emotional displays are a huge part of being human. For Kirk to say that Spock was the most human, despite rarely showing emotion, seems ridiculous.

It'd be like Picard insisting that Data was the most human individual he knew, or Sisko saying that Odo was the most human. It'd make for a nice speech, but it seems to lack in truth.

Disagree if you want, but it don't make you right. :lol:

Agreeing doesn't make you right, either!

TiberiusMaximus November 13 2012 07:04 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

For Kirk to say that Spock was the most human, despite rarely showing emotion, seems ridiculous.
Spock actually displays emotion frequently. His emotional displays are simply subtle and more nuanced than those shown by Kirk or McCoy or Scotty. Spock shows way more emotion than most people seem to remember.

Tuvok was cold, stone-faced, and condescending. Spock was stoic and intellectual, but he wasn't the emotionless automaton he's often remembered as.

Spock always has a logical justification for his actions, but in the end Kirk knew his friend well enough to know that a major part of Spock's motivation for his sacrifice was emotional - his friendship with Kirk and his concern for the safety of others.

A certain (paraphrased) Biblical quote seems appropriate: "No greater love has a man than this, that he would give his life to save his friends."

The points about Spock trying to better himself are very true.

jayrath November 13 2012 08:13 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
I'm not going to run back and check, but I believe that Kirk said something more like "Of all the souls I have encountered, his was the most human."

Are we really going to debate his assessement of a soul? And anyway Spock was half human. That's what made him so conflicted and such an interesting character. If you prefer to see him as cool, calculating machine, and if you derive pleasure from that, well, good for you.

Grant November 13 2012 09:28 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Really, how could someone so miss the point?

Defining 'human' based on a scale of emotional display.

R. Star November 13 2012 10:51 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

Grant wrote: (Post 7251337)
Really, how could someone so miss the point?

Defining 'human' based on a scale of emotional display.

By that definition Adolf Hitler was VERY human. :p

Captain McBain November 14 2012 03:16 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

Grant wrote: (Post 7251337)
Really, how could someone so miss the point?

Defining 'human' based on a scale of emotional display.

I think you guys might be big fans of the original show, and so you're probably biased. Willingness to sacrifice oneself is a human quality, but other members of Kirk's crew surely would have done the same. And again, part of the overall picture of being human is the desire to laugh, and smile, and get angry, and sad, and so on. For the most part, Spock didn't do any of that.

Would you honestly think Picard would be justified in insisting that Data was the most human soul he ever encountered? Of course you wouldn't. Or Sisko saying this about Odo? Again, of course you wouldn't.

Having personality is part of being human. Someone who has, for the most part, a bland or non-existent personality, can't really be said to be 'fully human.'

jayrath November 14 2012 03:47 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

Captain McBain wrote: (Post 7254550)
I think you guys might be big fans of the original show, and so you're probably biased.

Thanks for inadvertantly pointing out your own bias.

Nerys Myk November 14 2012 05:06 PM

Re: Kirk quote
 
Quote:

Captain McBain wrote: (Post 7254550)
Quote:

Grant wrote: (Post 7251337)
Really, how could someone so miss the point?

Defining 'human' based on a scale of emotional display.

I think you guys might be big fans of the original show, and so you're probably biased. Willingness to sacrifice oneself is a human quality, but other members of Kirk's crew surely would have done the same. And again, part of the overall picture of being human is the desire to laugh, and smile, and get angry, and sad, and so on. For the most part, Spock didn't do any of that.

Would you honestly think Picard would be justified in insisting that Data was the most human soul he ever encountered? Of course you wouldn't. Or Sisko saying this about Odo? Again, of course you wouldn't.

Having personality is part of being human. Someone who has, for the most part, a bland or non-existent personality, can't really be said to be 'fully human.'

That actually leaves out a fair amount of humans.

But seriously, most alien characters in Star Trek would qualify as human according to your definition. Emotions and personality run rampant in almost every Trek race.


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