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-   -   TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=191983)

mickemoose October 24 2012 12:35 AM

TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
In "The Making of Star Trek," Stephen Whitfield refers to the TOS Enterprise having a large recreation area featuring "outdoor" simulation. On pages 187 - 188 he writes, "Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past Star Trek episodes, this set has now been built and will be seen in the third season."

He goes on to include Gene Roddenberry's description of this rec area which Roddenberry explains, "Therefore, we intend to build a simulated "outdoor" recreation area which gives a realistic feeling of sky, breezes, plants, fountains, and so forth."

The only area on the TOS ship that bears any similarity to an "outdoor" setting is the botany lab which has plants. Indeed, the botany lab is shown in "And The Children Shall Lead" and "Is There in Truth No Beauty," both third season episodes, but it is also previously shown in "The Man Trap," a first season episode.

Would the botany lab set also be considered this "outdoor" setting Roddenberry described? If not, it would seem rather odd that crew members would be allowed to bring their food in at any time and socialize ("The Man Trap"), or kids would be allowed to enter and run around ("And The Children Shall Lead") in a scientific lab where botanical research is being conducted.

mickemoose October 24 2012 12:46 AM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Botany lab scene from the "The Man Trap."


Link

Albertese October 24 2012 01:19 AM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
This is one of those items which belies the supposed infallibility of TMoST. The book came out between seasons 2 and 3. The "recreation area" is, I am given to understand, the first inclination to what would be become the holodeck on TNG. It also made an appearance on TAS ("Practical Joker," IIRC). The line about the set having already been built and the promise that it would be seen in season 3 is patently false. The scene in the season 1 episode "The Man Trap" is a redress of sickbay, and the season 3 botany lab was not a standing set, so the line of having built the set is, sadly, nonsense.

--Alex

Unicron October 24 2012 01:19 AM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
I changed the image to a link. In the future, please don't post images directly from other websites as that steals their bandwidth. If you want to post screencaps or other images, use a free image host like PhotoBucket or ImageShack. ;)

mickemoose October 24 2012 01:58 AM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Gotcha! :techman:

Timo October 24 2012 09:25 AM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
The original question seems to be pretty much covered: TMoST ain't right.

In in-universe terms, the idea of "botany lab" being part of an accessible recreation area makes plenty of sense. Naturally, there would have to be quarantine areas for the nastier sorts of flora encountered in the TOS adventures, but consistency is well served by assuming that everything from "Man Trap" to "ITITNB" involves the same overall facility, for the reasons already given by mickemoose.

However, I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the idea of a starship moving a bunch of trees around. They don't uproot entire tribes and put them in onboard concentration camps in order to study languages; why haul timber for study purposes? And surely "recreation" could be arranged by other, more practicable means as well. In that sense, it would be nice to think of the "Man Trap" lab as a compact science-dedicated facility, and the seeming arboretum as a simulation that actually takes up very little room and can be stricken down so that the same room is available for other purposes at other times.

Remember those four mysterious glowing squares on the dorsal surface of the saucer rim? Or, even more interestingly, the three glowing squares, with one asymmetrically remaining dark? These could be stargazing rooms available for a variety of purposes (as suggested by the variety in the lighting status), and our heroes could have set up a park-lookalike in one for "season three" of their long and tedious mission...

Timo Saloniemi

Robert Comsol October 24 2012 03:20 PM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Quote:

Albertese wrote: (Post 7148578)
"This is one of those items which belies the supposed infallibility of TMoST. The book came out between seasons 2 and 3. The "recreation area" is, I am given to understand, the first inclination to what would be become the holodeck on TNG. It also made an appearance on TAS ("Practical Joker," IIRC). The line about the set having already been built and the promise that it would be seen in season 3 is patently false."

No, it is not. TMoST refers to "4 major facilities" on the Rec deck:
1. large recreation area
2. main food preparation area
3. ship's laundry
4. exotic entertainment center (presumed to be holodeck)

Original quote: "Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past episodes, this set has now been built and will be seen in the third season."

In Season Three we saw the Herbarium as part of the recreation area (soundstage 8) for the first time, so the promise was kept.

I assume that the "Life Sciences Botanical Section" from "The Man Trap", where Sulu is enjoying his meal, connects somehow to the Herbarium.

Bob

Unicron October 24 2012 10:32 PM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
"Herbarium" sounds like a funny name for some reason. :lol:

TIN_MAN October 24 2012 11:17 PM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Also, the herbarium set was a standing set and we no doubt would have seen more of it if had there been a fourth season. It was going to be featured in another third season episode as well -the title of which escapes me at the moment- but was cut from the final broadcast.

Here's an MJ sketch of the set (center column, second from the last image)...
[COLOR=#800080]http://www.trekcore.com/specials/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=4[/COLOR]

And here’s a sketch for another set (that was apparently never built) that adjoins it (bottom three images)... [COLOR=#800080]http://www.trekcore.com/specials/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=7[/COLOR]

That last table thingy was apparently built, as it (and another?) is apparently seen in ITITNB.

There is also a floor plan sketch in The Art of Star Trek that shows how these two sets were supposed to fit together –rather like FJ had his deck 18 rec facilities in his BOGP.

Albertese October 25 2012 05:00 AM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Quote:

Robert Comsol wrote: (Post 7150702)
Quote:

Albertese wrote: (Post 7148578)
"This is one of those items which belies the supposed infallibility of TMoST. The book came out between seasons 2 and 3. The "recreation area" is, I am given to understand, the first inclination to what would be become the holodeck on TNG. It also made an appearance on TAS ("Practical Joker," IIRC). The line about the set having already been built and the promise that it would be seen in season 3 is patently false."

No, it is not. TMoST refers to "4 major facilities" on the Rec deck:
1. large recreation area
2. main food preparation area
3. ship's laundry
4. exotic entertainment center (presumed to be holodeck)

Original quote: "Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past episodes, this set has now been built and will be seen in the third season."

In Season Three we saw the Herbarium as part of the recreation area (soundstage 8) for the first time, so the promise was kept.

I assume that the "Life Sciences Botanical Section" from "The Man Trap", where Sulu is enjoying his meal, connects somehow to the Herbarium.

Bob

Sorry, but no. If you read GR's comments that follow that he says, "THEREFORE WE INTEND TO BUILD A SIMULATED "OUTDOOR" RECREATION AREA WHICH GIVES A REALISTIC FEELING OF SKY, BREEZES, PLANTS, FOUNTAINS, AND SO FORTH." (Please note, the use of the capslock is straight from the book, I'm not just trying to be a dick... but the bold letters are mine, for emphasis.)

The "Herbarium" does not simulate being outdoors in any way. This promise fell short. I will concede that when writing this, such a plan may have been in the works and was assumed to have been finished by the time book was published, and even perhaps that the Herbarium was a compromised, lesser version of what Gene wanted (and eventually got in TAS and TNG) but I do not accept that this was exactly what Steve and Gene were describing in the book.

But I do agree with you in the assumption that the Life Sciences Section and the Herbarium are adjacent to each other and connect.

Quote:

TIN_MAN wrote: (Post 7152514)
Also, the herbarium set was a standing set and we no doubt would have seen more of it if had there been a fourth season. It was going to be featured in another third season episode as well -the title of which escapes me at the moment- but was cut from the final broadcast.

...

It wasn't a standing set. Standing sets are those which remain up all the time because they are needed more or less for every episode. The Bridge, Sickbay, Corridor, Crew Cabin, Briefing Room and Transporter Room were the standing sets. Everything else would be assembled for the scene and struck when they were done with it due to the limits of room on the stage. New parts of the ship were, wherever possible, redressed other sets. The briefing room especially gets a lot of mileage. IIRC, Engineering wasn't a standing set until year 2; before that it was assembled as needed out of wild components, which is why there is so much variation of the season 1 engine room. Other parts of the ship were also assembled as needed, including the Auxiliary Control Room and the Emergency Manual Monitor Room just to name a couple. the Herbarium would have been assembled as needed in just this manner, it was much too big and used much too infrequently to have been a standing set. It would be put together on a "set of the week" basis like, say, the Romulan Bridge in "Balance of Terror," or the audience chamber for Landru in "Return of the Archons" or any other one-off set for a given episode. Now, granted, these wild components could be stored to be used/redressed for later episodes, so it's not so special that the same space appeared in two episodes, especially since "And the Children Shall Lead" and "Is There In Truth No Beauty" were produced almost consecutively (ATCSL was in post and ITITNB was in pre-production as "Spock's Brain" was being shot between them) so it's not unreasonable to assume this was the only time the set was up.


--Alex

Robert Comsol October 25 2012 09:33 PM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Quote:

Albertese wrote: (Post 7153918)
"The "Herbarium" does not simulate being outdoors in any way. This promise fell short. I will concede that when writing this, such a plan may have been in the works and was assumed to have been finished by the time book was published, and even perhaps that the Herbarium was a compromised, lesser version of what Gene wanted (and eventually got in TAS and TNG) but I do not accept that this was exactly what Steve and Gene were describing in the book."

Well, to simulate outdoors was one (of many) intentions and actually I'm glad we got the Herbarium as otherwise they probably would have gone on location, shoot outdoors and then pretend it's aboard the ship which nobody would have seriously believed.
But despite all the budget restrictions they could have made more efforts to feature some exterior windows on the Enterprise. ;)

TIN_MAN October 25 2012 11:04 PM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
The two quotes from the TMoST cited above are not mutually exclusive.

Of the four facilities listed, the first one; "large recreation area" -is the one referred to by this quote...

"Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past episodes, this set has now been built and will be seen in the third season."

This is the set we've been calling the herbarium, so it was built, and it was seen in the third season, so TMoST is correct.

The fourth one; "exotic entertainment center" -is the one referred to by this quote...

"Therefore we intend to build a simulated "outdoor" recreation area which gives a realistic feeling of sky, breezes, plants, fountains, and so fourth."

This set was obviously never built, and we therefore never saw it, but then the TMoST doesn't claim otherwise, only that they intend to build it, so again TMoST is correct.

As for whether the Herbarium was a standing set, I still say it was. I worked in the theater business building sets, so I’m very well aware of how sets are used and stored; and being an original TOS fan since the Sixties, I’ve certainly been around long enough to know how the Trek production handled their set requirements. So unless I see an original memo or an interview that says otherwise, I’ll remain unconvinced that it was anything other than a permanent addition to the other standing sets, as was the case with the auxiliary control room and emergency manual monitor.

Albertese October 26 2012 08:18 AM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Quote:

TIN_MAN wrote: (Post 7157548)
The two quotes from the TMoST cited above are not mutually exclusive.

Of the four facilities listed, the first one; "large recreation area" -is the one referred to by this quote...

"Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past episodes, this set has now been built and will be seen in the third season."

This is the set we've been calling the herbarium, so it was built, and it was seen in the third season, so TMoST is correct.

The fourth one; "exotic entertainment center" -is the one referred to by this quote...

"Therefore we intend to build a simulated "outdoor" recreation area which gives a realistic feeling of sky, breezes, plants, fountains, and so fourth."

This set was obviously never built, and we therefore never saw it, but then the TMoST doesn't claim otherwise, only that they intend to build it, so again TMoST is correct.

I'm not so sure.

Seems to me that the line "Gene describes it this way" indicates that the "set that has now been built and will be seen in the third season" is the outdoor simulation center, the same as the "rather exotic entertainment center," the forth area mentioned as a deck 8 facility.

But see for yourself. For those of you who do not own a copy of The Making of Star Trek, or, more likely, simply don't have it handy, I will, as a public service, reproduce a short segment of it here...

Quote:

The Making of Star Trek says on page 187-8:

The primary hull's eighth deck level contains four major facilities: a large recreation area, the main food preparation area (similar to the galley aboard our ships today), ship's laundry, and a rather exotic entertainment center. Although this recreation area has never been shown in any past STAR TREK episodes. This set has now been built and will be seen in the third season. Gene describes it this way:

MEN AND WOMEN ON A STARSHIP, SO LONG OUT OF CONTACT WITH EARTH AND SO LONG AWAY FROM OTHER PLANETS, TOO, WILL REQUIRE A FEELING OF FRESH AIR AND SKY AND WIND AND SCENTS. BECAUSE WE ARE, IN MANY RESPECTS, STILL ANIMALS, OUR MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL EQUILIBRIUM WILL REQUIRE THE FAMILIARITY OF THIS. MAN HAS BEEN TOO LONG A PART OF EARTH TO BE TOO LONG SEPARATED. THEREFORE WE INTEND TO BUILD A SIMULATED "OUTDOOR" RECREATION AREA WHICH GIVES A REALISTIC FEELING OF SKY, BREEZES, PLANTS, FOUNTAINS AND SO FORTH.

ONE OF THE REASONS FOR MAKING A STARSHIP SO LARGE WOULD BE TO HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THIS -- IN FACT TO CREATE A WHOLE "COMMUNITY" SO NECESSARY TO A SOCIAL ANIMAL. AN AUTOMATED STARSHIP LIKE OURS COULD PROBABLY BE OPERATED BY TEN PEOPLE IF NECESSARY, BUT IT WOULD BE A TERRIBLY LIMITED, UNHEALTHY, MISERABLE LIFE.
Then they go on to talk about the food prep area. But it seems clear to me that they're talking about something that was never quite realized in actual fact. The Herbarium (so labeled in Matt Jefferies drawings of it) is probably the "next best thing" to what Gene was looking for. (Who, let's not forget, took a major back seat during the third season.)

Quote:

As for whether the Herbarium was a standing set, I still say it was. I worked in the theater business building sets, so I’m very well aware of how sets are used and stored; and being an original TOS fan since the Sixties, I’ve certainly been around long enough to know how the Trek production handled their set requirements. So unless I see an original memo or an interview that says otherwise, I’ll remain unconvinced that it was anything other than a permanent addition to the other standing sets, as was the case with the auxiliary control room and emergency manual monitor.
...:rolleyes:

How can I argue with airtight logic like that?

I have on my computer three different versions of the plans of the studio which demonstrate that the stage was reset almost every episode. Something that wasn't needed wasn't staying up, as there was very limited real estate. If you want to conclude that an enormous set that was only seen in two scenes in the entire run of the series was taking up room throughout the entire third season... you're welcome to it. But that's clearly crap.

You guys have fun, I'm out.

--Alex

PS, Before I leave, a case in point.

This may be helpful, a quote from Star Trek Sketchbook: The Original Series by Herbert F. Solow and Yvonne Fern Sollow. It's the lead-in text to introduce a whole series of pictures of the cardboard miniature sets MJ built and happened to still have laying around when they interviewed him for the book.

Quote:

Star Trek Sketchbook: the Orginal Series says on page 94:

As if Matt Jeffereis didn't have enough problems physically designing the Star Trek series, a new and very immediate problem faced him in early May 1966. Each and every week thereafter, a Star Trek director would show up on his doorstep with a deceptively simple request: "I'm ready to go down to the stage to see the sets, so I can plan how to shoot my episode. Can you walk me through?" It was a question to which there was no readily available answer.

There was no way Matt could walk the directors through the sets because each episode had it's own set requirements and there just wasn't enough stage space available to keep all the permanent sets standing. There was no way Matt could tell the directors to screen the pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before," because so much had changed when the sets were moved from the Desilu Culver studios, where the pilot had been shot, to the Desilu Gower studios, where the series was being filmed. There was no way Matt could tell the directors to watch NBC at 8:30 on Thursday nights to get a look at the sets and get a feeling for the series -- because Star Trek had not yet premiered. But the always-resourceful Matt Jefferies had planned ahead. "Follow me," he'd say "to another room here in the art department, and I'll show you!"

Matt had spent his weekends at home building, on his own time, with his own money and with his own materials, a four-foot by four-foot, three-dimensional scale model of Desilu Stage 9 to depict what all of Star Trek's permanent sets would look like if they were ever put up at the same time. It hung from an art department wall and gave the directors the only practical, three-dimensional look at their permanent sets until that morning seven to fourteen days hence, when they would show up on the real stage to direct Star Trek.
This story focuses on the first few episodes, but never was there enough stage to keep everything up all the time. Stuff was broken and stored and moved around all the time to accommodate the day's needs.

--AM

Albertese October 26 2012 07:55 PM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Also, for those who love TMoST but like to poop on FJ, here's his take on Deck 8. Although he wasn't personally a Star Trek fan, he did work very closely with his daughter and her Trek fan club buddies while putting this stuff together. This drawing suggests that at least that particular group of fans in the early 70's didn't equate the herbarium set with the lines we are debating from TMoSt. (Though, to be fair, I don't believe there is any facility in the FJ blueprints which reflect the Herbarium set. This is probably one of those places he thought it'd make more sense to handle a different way. But all such decisions to change things were done with the blessing of his daughter and her fan group and were signed off on by Gene "The Man" Roddenberry himself.)

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/525/fjdeck8bgp.jpg

--Alex

TIN_MAN October 26 2012 11:40 PM

Re: TOS Botany Lab = "Outdoor" Recreation Area?
 
Quote:

Albertese wrote: (Post 7159333)
PS, Before I leave, a case in point.

This may be helpful, a quote from Star Trek Sketchbook: The Original Series by Herbert F. Solow and Yvonne Fern Sollow. It's the lead-in text to introduce a whole series of pictures of the cardboard miniature sets MJ built and happened to still have laying around when they interviewed him for the book.

Quote:

Star Trek Sketchbook: the Orginal Series says on page 94:

As if Matt Jeffereis didn't have enough problems physically designing the Star Trek series, a new and very immediate problem faced him in early May 1966. Each and every week thereafter, a Star Trek director would show up on his doorstep with a deceptively simple request: "I'm ready to go down to the stage to see the sets, so I can plan how to shoot my episode. Can you walk me through?" It was a question to which there was no readily available answer.

There was no way Matt could walk the directors through the sets because each episode had it's own set requirements and there just wasn't enough stage space available to keep all the permanent sets standing. There was no way Matt could tell the directors to screen the pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before," because so much had changed when the sets were moved from the Desilu Culver studios, where the pilot had been shot, to the Desilu Gower studios, where the series was being filmed. There was no way Matt could tell the directors to watch NBC at 8:30 on Thursday nights to get a look at the sets and get a feeling for the series -- because Star Trek had not yet premiered. But the always-resourceful Matt Jefferies had planned ahead. "Follow me," he'd say "to another room here in the art department, and I'll show you!"

Matt had spent his weekends at home building, on his own time, with his own money and with his own materials, a four-foot by four-foot, three-dimensional scale model of Desilu Stage 9 to depict what all of Star Trek's permanent sets would look like if they were ever put up at the same time. It hung from an art department wall and gave the directors the only practical, three-dimensional look at their permanent sets until that morning seven to fourteen days hence, when they would show up on the real stage to direct Star Trek.
This story focuses on the first few episodes, but never was there enough stage to keep everything up all the time. Stuff was broken and stored and moved around all the time to accommodate the day's needs.

--AM

Well, if you're still lurking about Albertese, I'll extend an olive branch, and meet you half way. I never said that the permanent standing sets did not have "wild" sections and were always kept ready to film, or that sections could be temporarily stored until needed. Nor am I talking about the "redress of the week" or the one time scratch built "set of the week", there is a difference.

I too am familiar with those three stage plans you mentioned, plus a few others, and they don’t really help resolve the matter. One thing to keep in mind is, we don’t know when Jefferies made his mini set and if or when he may have modified it before the series folded, so it’s hard to say what if any relevance it has regarding the status of the EMM and the ACR sets.

Granted, there's a little bit of a technical difference between "permanent set" and "standing set" which can lead to confusion, but as far as I've been able to determine, the ACR and the EMM were "permanent sets" even though sections may have been moved around or temporarily stowed out of the way -but no less so than sections of the bridge or any other "standing set", so we can't use the argument that wild sections and storability equal "temporary set".

Now, I'll concede that the Herbarium may have been a set that was completely "struck" when not in use, but I'm not convinced it was; so no hard feelings.

As far as a facility in FJ's plans that is comparable to the Herbarium set, as I mentioned above if we look at FJ's deck 18 plans, we will see his version of that set.


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