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-   -   Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=191362)

Fastwalker October 17 2012 08:55 AM

Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
So Lal v1.0 was a success and a failure at the same time. Lal exceeded Data expectations:
  1. using contractions
  2. feeling fear
  3. feeling love
  4. turning Riker into a bumbling idiot at 10-Forward

Data failed with Lal v1.0 when her positronic brain couldnt handle the stress that StarFleet may take her away from her father.

Why didnt Data attempt another pass at making Lal v2.0. Afterall, Data is the last of his kind. I doubt there'll be more B-4s laying around the galaxy for Data to find conveniently before sacrificing himself for the greater good.

Already Data has a head start. Lal v1.0's memories are still in Data's head. He could've built another android and research and fix the problem. If Lal v2.0 failed, then try Lal v3.0, v4.0, etc. Even with success, make more androids, like Data's son, named Lol (pun intended... LOL!)

To stress my question again: Why did Data give up trying after the first attempt? Hello, Data! You fell off your positronic horse. So what? Get your narrow, artificial ass back up on that horse.

R. Star October 17 2012 01:34 PM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Likely because he didn't find a solution to the problem that made her not work.

gastrof October 18 2012 03:55 AM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Also, didn't he promise his mother he wouldn't?

Juliana Soong saw Lal's photo, found out who the girl in the picture was, and asked Data to promise her he'd never try to create another android ever again.

Fastwalker October 18 2012 05:00 AM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

gastrof wrote: (Post 7120780)
Juliana Soong saw Lal's photo, found out who the girl in the picture was, and asked Data to promise her he'd never try to create another android ever again.

REALLY?! I don't remember that part in the episode. I'll have to rewatch the episode. If true, then that's a horrible thing for Julian to say to Data. Bad mom!

Data should've continued his attempts at "procreating". Even tho Data didn't find the error in Lal, he should've created another android and use different types of "parenting".

R. Star October 18 2012 08:10 AM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

Fastwalker wrote: (Post 7120996)
Quote:

gastrof wrote: (Post 7120780)
Juliana Soong saw Lal's photo, found out who the girl in the picture was, and asked Data to promise her he'd never try to create another android ever again.

REALLY?! I don't remember that part in the episode. I'll have to rewatch the episode. If true, then that's a horrible thing for Julian to say to Data. Bad mom!

Data should've continued his attempts at "procreating". Even tho Data didn't find the error in Lal, he should've created another android and use different types of "parenting".

If you consider Data a sentient life form and thus any offspring he creates similarly sentient that is a grossly irresponsible thing to suggest.

One, I would believe most parents would agree with you that you shouldn't have a child if you can't ensure their safety. In this case if a child is going to die due to an error that you can't resolve on your part, bringing another child into the world you know to die would be morally questionable at best.

Unless you're suggesting that these "disposable" chlidren shoudl just be platforms for experimentation on his "parenting" in which case I'd find that even more morally dubious turning them in effect into guinea pigs. Either way I don't see it as something Data would do again until he's certain he cold resolve the issue.

Timo October 18 2012 10:37 AM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

I would believe most parents would agree with you that you shouldn't have a child if you can't ensure their safety.
Most parents, if queried, would probably agree. But most parents, in actual fact, would probably not hold back on such grounds. About 100% of children born today are born without reasonable safety guarantees, and are very likely to die at a young age.

Quote:

bringing another child into the world you know to die would be morally questionable at best
Morals and procreation are rather mightily disconnected in the human case - it takes something the magnitude of religion to connect them, and that's very seldom related to the rights or well-being of the child in any way. Perhaps Data wants to be human in this respect as well?

Although Data probably doesn't see any hurry. We could just as well ask why he stopped dating after "In Theory". Being an android, he'd simply still have plenty of time to break all of Casanova's records, even counting in his apparent "aging subroutine".

Timo Saloniemi

T'Preea October 23 2012 04:54 AM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
The reason Julianna Soong made Data promise her that he wouldn't try again was that even though Data doesn't "feel" in the same context that we do, she knew that if it failed yet again; she knew that he would take the loss as a hurt in his own way, and from her own experiences with losing her "children"; she didn't want Data to "feel" that loss again.

Fastwalker October 25 2012 08:10 AM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

Zombie Redshirt wrote: (Post 7121416)
One, I would believe most parents would agree with you that you shouldn't have a child if you can't ensure their safety. In this case if a child is going to die due to an error that you can't resolve on your part, bringing another child into the world you know to die would be morally questionable at best.

I disagree. If all parents thought the same way, the human race would've never gone past caves.

What do you think about children with fatal illnesses? Should those parents give up on those kids and euthanize them? What about children born with disabilities? Should Geordi LaForge's parents give up on him because he was born blind and will have a harder time growing up? Should parents give up getting pregnant because they had a misborn?

No. Parents would do their best to find a cure or make those kids' lives as fruitful as possible. Life doesn't give up. And neither should Data.

Just because Data had problems with his first child he shouldn't give up. Results will vary with proceeding offsprings. We can't assume Lal v2.0 will have the same complications as Lal v1.0. Is it possible for Lal v2.0 to go thru the exact same events as Lal v1.0 did? No.

There'd be a lot more support from StarFleet to ensure Lal v2.0 is successful. Data will have Commander Bruce Maddox, Vice Admiral Anthony Haftel, and all of his friends, giving their full support and resources.

As for Julianna Soong's remark, I need to find time to watch that episode again.

MikeS October 25 2012 12:17 PM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 7121746)
About 100% of children born today are born without reasonable safety guarantees, and are very likely to die at a young age.

I suppose that depends on what you term young?! :eek:

K'kaHn October 25 2012 10:10 PM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
It seems very arrogant of Data to give up after one failure. to do so suggests that he thought he would succeed in one try where his father had failed i believe it was four times before finally creating a relatively successfull android.

R. Star October 25 2012 10:46 PM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

K'kaHn wrote: (Post 7157191)
It seems very arrogant of Data to give up after one failure. to do so suggests that he thought he would succeed in one try where his father had failed i believe it was four times before finally creating a relatively successfull android.

How's that arrogant again? From an android standpoint it makes perfect sense. At the beginning of the episode he thought he had away around the technobabble issues that prevented people from making more Soong type androids. He tried the method, it didn't work. So until he finds another method around it, why would he try again knowing it won't work?

Fastwalker October 27 2012 10:46 AM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

Zombie Redshirt wrote: (Post 7157407)
... why would he try again knowing it won't work?

How can you assume it won't work again? There were a number of human factors that caused Lal v1.0's failure. Again, creating Lal v2.0 would have a more positive environment than Lal v1.0 had. Like I said in my previous post, Data would receive support and resources from his well-placed and -connection contacts:
  • Commander Bruce Maddox
  • Vice Admiral Anthony Haftel
  • Crew of the Enterprise-D/E
  • Lieutenant Reginald Barclay
  • and various friends Data has made in the past
Back to the OP. Gastrof probably has the best answer why Data didn't make Lal v2.0:

Quote:

gastrof wrote: (Post 7120780)
Juliana Soong saw Lal's photo, found out who the girl in the picture was, and asked Data to promise her he'd never try to create another android ever again.

Why Juliana made such a request still puzzles me? What a shame Data agreed. Because I don't know if I can accept T'Preea's answer.

T'Preea October 27 2012 07:38 PM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
^You don't have to accept my answer. These discussions are mere speculation. I gave my two cents just as everyone else has.

R. Star October 27 2012 07:42 PM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

Fastwalker wrote: (Post 7163887)
Quote:

Zombie Redshirt wrote: (Post 7157407)
... why would he try again knowing it won't work?

How can you assume it won't work again? There were a number of human factors that caused Lal v1.0's failure. Again, creating Lal v2.0 would have a more positive environment than Lal v1.0 had. Like I said in my previous post, Data would receive support and resources from his well-placed and -connection contacts:
  • Commander Bruce Maddox
  • Vice Admiral Anthony Haftel
  • Crew of the Enterprise-D/E
  • Lieutenant Reginald Barclay
  • and various friends Data has made in the past

Maddox probably would and is trying to make a new Soong type android. Data doesn't really factor into the equation save as an end or maybe a means to an end being he wanted to take him apart to somehow reverse engineer him. ((Maybe that's what happened to Lore? :p )) Sure Data exchanged letters with him, but that seemed more akin to Data being polite than any genuine partnership. Certainly he didn't call him up when he made Lal, so why would he do so with any future projects? The guy's a jerk, and we're not even sure how smart he is given he couldn't even provide basic details as to WHY he thought taking Data apart would be the magic hand wave to make more androids. Data didn't think he knew what he was talking about.

Admiral Haftel tried and failed to fix Lal too. By all accounts her posatronic matrix just wasn't stable and that was what Maddox couldn't duplicate either. As moved as he was at the end of the episode, he had no problem yanking her out of Data's custody as a guinea pig. So he'd likely sign off on a future android, with or without Data.

As for Barclay? He never showed any aptitude towards robotics really. Given his experience with holodeck programing he likely could write up an android's software with the best of them, but Lal's problems were with her hardware.

As for Data's other acquaintances? Only Geordi really had any experience in the field, and that was from working with Data/Lore/B4. He's on record saying he couldn't duplicate it either, even though he didn't really put any effort into the project.

Again, it comes back down to the fundamental problem why Lal didn't work. Her hardware was faulty. Data found a new method at some robotics seminar that he thought might work. He tried it, it didn't. So unless a new method presents itself, why is he going to try again with a method that's proven not to work? None of the people you mentioned really are going to get around her hardware issues.

Fastwalker November 7 2012 09:46 PM

Re: Why didnt Data create Lal v2.0?
 
Quote:

T'Preea wrote: (Post 7144516)
Julianna Soong made Data promise her that he wouldn't try again...

Okay, T'Preea. I watched "Inheritance" episode twice. Julianna didn't ask Data to make any promises, especially about making another android offspring. The episode revealed following information:
  • There were 3 previous androids built before Lore
  • Julianna treated each android like her own child
  • Each android iteration had little chances of survival
  • Julianna wanted to stop making more androids but Soong won and made Lore and Data
  • Julianna was against Data's creation
  • Julianna was guilt ridden over making Soong leave Data behind despite room in escape pod
  • Julianna was afraid Data would be like Lore (evil)
  • When asked, Julianna almost admitted she would never leave Data if he were her biological child
  • If Data made an offspring, he would no longer be alone, which Troi knows how much this means to him

Based on the above information, Data should realize creating a stable offspring isn't as easy as shake-n-bake. It'll take time and, most likely, a number of tries.


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