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-   -   Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=189718)

Gotham Central September 30 2012 06:01 PM

Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
I took a moment to watch these episodes again on netflix, and I have to say, they are much more powerful now than they were when it originally aired.

It really is ironic that the final farewell of River Song happens when we first meet her. I'm hoping that Matt Smith's tenure as the Doctor ends with him turning up on her doorstep, wisking her off on their final adventure, giving her the modified screwdriver and then quietly tearing up as they say goodbye.

Kaijima September 30 2012 08:44 PM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Well the funny thing is...

... River Song is not "dead".

I've wondered about this for a long time, actually. River Song is alive, digitally - her preserved mindstate, in the Library's computer core. Along with the minds of her research team, in a virtual reality.

The Doctor has known her ending all along, but also known it's not truly an ending. He COULD have gone back to the Library planet now that's safe (or should be safe?). And had a conversation with River any time he liked. We might assume that the Doctor hasn't done that even off-screen because he wouldn't want to risk accidentally learning more about his future from Digital River.

Going by that logic, I think the power of the episodes is not diminished; in fact they're more poignant in my view because it feels like a great, big, other shoe waiting to drop. We might reason that the Doctor is waiting until his forward motion through time catches up to River departing on her trip to the Library where she "dies". After that point, the Doctor should be free and clear. He knows everything that happened with River to the end of her life. Thus he would be free to at last return to the Library and contact Digital River. This is the Whovere y'know - there must be an infinite number of ways to provide River with a physical form for her consciousness to be downloaded into. (Why couldn't she just operate a remote body made of the Flesh?)

Technically, River is also now immortal. Her actress notwithstanding, within the fiction the Doctor should be free to meet up with River again and move forward synchronized in time. If she is given a new body, it could easily be as immortal or replaceable as the Doctor's.

Alidar Jarok September 30 2012 08:48 PM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Why is the Library planet now safe? I thought they agreed to a truce, but the Vashta Nerada still occupy it.

Kaijima October 1 2012 12:38 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Quote:

Alidar Jarok wrote: (Post 7036630)
Why is the Library planet now safe? I thought they agreed to a truce, but the Vashta Nerada still occupy it.

I suppose by "safe" I mean the Doctor probably has a legitimate reason to be able to go there and ask permission to visit. Due to the truce.

Considering the stunts the Doctor pulls left and right, finding an excuse to let the Vashta Nerada allow him to pop in for five minutes and access at terminal seems trivial.

Jax October 1 2012 01:05 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Quote:

I'm hoping that Matt Smith's tenure as the Doctor ends with him turning up on her doorstep, wisking her off on their final adventure, giving her the modified screwdriver and then quietly tearing up as they say goodbye.
River states he turns up with a new look so I have always assumed Moffat final 11th episode sees him regenerate and goes to see River one last time, be a nice way to wrap up the Moffat era & River arc.

Alidar Jarok October 1 2012 01:58 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
I assume we're not counting the mini-episodes on this subject

Ghost Bones October 1 2012 02:18 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Well I don't give a fig about River Sue, in fact she's a detestably awful character and the most convoluted and stupid storyline line Who's ever done. But the Library two parter is great, maybe the best New Who story.

The Wormhole October 1 2012 02:37 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Honestly, knowing what we now know about River, I find it hard to believe she will actually be happy spending eternity in a digital world looking after imaginary children with only the crew of the ship she recentally travelled on for company.

Alidar Jarok October 1 2012 03:02 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
True, but it's better than being dead. It's at least peaceful.

Plain Simple October 1 2012 04:05 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Quote:

Kaijima wrote: (Post 7036609)
This is the Whovere y'know - there must be an infinite number of ways to provide River with a physical form for her consciousness to be downloaded into. (Why couldn't she just operate a remote body made of the Flesh?)

Technically, River is also now immortal. Her actress notwithstanding, within the fiction the Doctor should be free to meet up with River again and move forward synchronized in time. If she is given a new body, it could easily be as immortal or replaceable as the Doctor's.

Given that River is tied to the 11th Doctor's story, I'm assuming they'll want to wrap up her story at or before the end of the 11th's tenure. Given that she's the Doctor's wife, I'm thinking they will somehow give her a grand send off. Given that there's precedent for linking the TARDIS and the Doctor's wife, I'm going to make a wild guess here, and say she'll be somehow downloaded from the Library and uploaded into/fused with the TARDIS. Or maybe not. ;)

davejames October 2 2012 03:48 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Yeah it's weird watching those episodes again, because you really do see things much more from River's perspective. After spending so much time with the 11th Doctor, and seeing the way those two interact, it's easier to understand now the sense of loss and heartbreak she feels when the 10th Doctor doesn't even recognize her.

SJSharksfan39 October 2 2012 06:59 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
I haven't seen the episodes in a long time, but I watched the River Song Timeline thing on Youtube over the weekend, and the scene where River and the Doctor (David Tennant) first meet in the library, I really felt for her. I really loved the subtle emotion of they are married, but the Doctor doesn't even know it and the sadness that she had.

I do have a bit of a confusion though. Who is the river we see post the season 6 finale? I thought that was kind of the end of River and that scene where she first meets Amy and then comes back to Amy's back yard was kind of an epilogue. How does their adventures in this last finale affect her timeline? Are they just continuing adventures and she is still moving backwards on a collision course to the imaginary world inside the library, or is she creating another paradox?

Plain Simple October 2 2012 07:24 AM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Quote:

tomalak301 wrote: (Post 7043377)
Are they just continuing adventures and she is still moving backwards on a collision course to the imaginary world inside the library

Yes, that, I think. I don't see why not. As she said in TATM, she is a professor now, which probably means closer in time to the Library than when she was in jail.

Alidar Jarok October 2 2012 02:05 PM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
Quote:

tomalak301 wrote: (Post 7043377)
I haven't seen the episodes in a long time, but I watched the River Song Timeline thing on Youtube over the weekend, and the scene where River and the Doctor (David Tennant) first meet in the library, I really felt for her. I really loved the subtle emotion of they are married, but the Doctor doesn't even know it and the sadness that she had.

I do have a bit of a confusion though. Who is the river we see post the season 6 finale? I thought that was kind of the end of River and that scene where she first meets Amy and then comes back to Amy's back yard was kind of an epilogue. How does their adventures in this last finale affect her timeline? Are they just continuing adventures and she is still moving backwards on a collision course to the imaginary world inside the library, or is she creating another paradox?

In the series 6 finale scene in Amy's backyard, she had just encountered the Weeping Angels in the two-part episode. I get the impression that they are now traveling roughly parallel with each other (since she is now a professor and out of prison). Certainly to the point where they can avoid confusing each other.

Photoman15 October 2 2012 02:22 PM

Re: Silence in the Library/Forrest of the Dead in retrospect
 
And since she's sorta "Timelord-ish", that's why she knows that Ten is The Doctor. Makes sense now.


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