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-   -   Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=186083)

The Overlord August 24 2012 08:37 PM

Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Would you say there some similarities between Khan in Wrath of Khan and Picard in First Contact? Both of them wanted revenge on another party for they felt had wronged them and both of them lost their sense of perspective over the course of the film. The key difference of course is Picard came to his senses near the end, while Khan was unwilling to give up on his quest for revenge. So how do you think the theme of revenge compares in both Wrath of Khan and First Contact?

sonak August 24 2012 10:30 PM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 6853553)
Would you say there some similarities between Khan in Wrath of Khan and Picard in First Contact? Both of them wanted revenge on another party for they felt had wronged them and both of them lost their sense of perspective over the course of the film. The key difference of course is Picard came to his senses near the end, while Khan was unwilling to give up on his quest for revenge. So how do you think the theme of revenge compares in both Wrath of Khan and First Contact?


some key differences: Khan's revenge was focused on an actual person, while Picard's was focused on a more faceless, impersonal enemy.

Picard's desire for revenge was justified considering the Borg kidnapped and violated him. Khan on the other hand tried to take over Kirk's ship, then later blamed him for a freak astronomical occurence.

CorporalClegg August 24 2012 10:46 PM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
For one, they both delivered them ham on a silver platter with overwritten speeches at the end of their films.

M-Red August 25 2012 07:46 AM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Nope.


Khan initiated the fight unnecessarily. JLP reacted defensively to events beyond his control.


Picard's was a defensive rage. The Borg attacked once again, and he was finally backed into the last corner where he couldn't take it anymore. Given the stakes, one more retreat was not acceptable.


Khan's was an aggressive rage. Kirk wasn't an immediate threat, but he sought out and then launched a surprise attack on the Enterprise. He could have taken the Reliant and zoomed off into seclusion. Instead, he hunted Kirk.


Only superficially is there a parallel motivation. The historical contexts and the events surrounding the decision making processes for the two individuals are different.

RoJoHen August 25 2012 09:31 AM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
You can tell a Star Trek character is on a quest for revenge when they start quoting Moby Dick.

R. Star August 25 2012 10:11 AM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
They both took very different roads toward revenge. You can argue justification all you want, it really is an opinion. Khan certainly thought he was justied after all.

The common theme between the two really was the desire for revenge leading to self-destruction.

T'Girl August 26 2012 08:14 AM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
More Khan and Nero, than Khan and Picard.

Both have a dead wife they have to revenge.
Both blame a Starfleet officer for their own personal problems.
Both use those earwig things to control folks.
Both wore grunge-club clothing.
Both laid their hands on a super weapon that was developed in the Federation.
Both were "imprisoned" for a protracted period of time (Ceti Alpha/Klingon prison).

And both failed to saved their wives, Khan was unable, and Nero simply forgot to beam her off of Romulus.

:)

SimpleLogic September 11 2012 08:17 PM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge? -Merchant of Venice (Act III Scene I)

Star Trek has always tried to be Shakespearean in their themes, like most movies, so I think it came off great in both of those movies.

Xaios September 13 2012 02:25 AM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Quote:

RoJoHen wrote: (Post 6856697)
You can tell a Star Trek character is on a quest for revenge when they start quoting Moby Dick.

That guy who asked Gillian in Star Trek IV if whales eat people like in Moby Dick...

OUT FOR VENGEANCE.

Maple Dog September 13 2012 08:14 PM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Khan was stranded on a planet with his crew for many years,and lost his wife,Picard was assimilated for a short period.

Maple Dog September 13 2012 08:16 PM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 6861884)
More Khan and Nero, than Khan and Picard.

Both have a dead wife they have to revenge.
Both blame a Starfleet officer for their own personal problems.
Both use those earwig things to control folks.
Both wore grunge-club clothing.
Both laid their hands on a super weapon that was developed in the Federation.
Both were "imprisoned" for a protracted period of time (Ceti Alpha/Klingon prison).

And both failed to saved their wives, Khan was unable, and Nero simply forgot to beam her off of Romulus.

:)

Wan't Nero away when Romulus was destroyed?

T'Girl September 14 2012 12:52 AM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Quote:

Maple Dog wrote: (Post 6955894)
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 6861884)
And both failed to saved their wives, Khan was unable, and Nero simply forgot to beam her off of Romulus.

Wan't Nero away when Romulus was destroyed?

The destruction of Romulus didn't come out of nowhere, there was time for government discussion on what to do, time for Spock to travel to Vulcan, acquire a ship with red matter, and return to the Empire.

It is unclear how much was general known by the Romulan people, however Nero was able to be in the vicinity of the supernova immediately after Romulus's destruction, to intercept Spock.

Nero isn't responsible for the destruction of Romulus, but he is (imo) culpable in the death of his wife, in so far as he did nothing to save her.

:)

Maple Dog September 14 2012 01:49 AM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 6957790)
Quote:

Maple Dog wrote: (Post 6955894)
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 6861884)
And both failed to saved their wives, Khan was unable, and Nero simply forgot to beam her off of Romulus.

Wan't Nero away when Romulus was destroyed?

The destruction of Romulus didn't come out of nowhere, there was time for government discussion on what to do, time for Spock to travel to Vulcan, acquire a ship with red matter, and return to the Empire.

It is unclear how much was general known by the Romulan people, however Nero was able to be in the vicinity of the supernova immediately after Romulus's destruction, to intercept Spock.

Nero isn't responsible for the destruction of Romulus, but he is (imo) culpable in the death of his wife, in so far as he did nothing to save her.

:)

They did not say if the Narada has transporters aboard,or shuttles to come in or out,i guess since its a mining ship,its primary fonction was mining,:confused:

Mars September 14 2012 03:43 AM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Quote:

sonak wrote: (Post 6854270)
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 6853553)
Would you say there some similarities between Khan in Wrath of Khan and Picard in First Contact? Both of them wanted revenge on another party for they felt had wronged them and both of them lost their sense of perspective over the course of the film. The key difference of course is Picard came to his senses near the end, while Khan was unwilling to give up on his quest for revenge. So how do you think the theme of revenge compares in both Wrath of Khan and First Contact?


some key differences: Khan's revenge was focused on an actual person, while Picard's was focused on a more faceless, impersonal enemy.

Picard's desire for revenge was justified considering the Borg kidnapped and violated him. Khan on the other hand tried to take over Kirk's ship, then later blamed him for a freak astronomical occurence.

That was sort of arbitrary, as in an old western when the hero leaves town, he kicks up a pebble which startles a rat that scurries a way getting into the horses feeding trough causing the horse to rear and buck knocking down the post supporting the saloon which collapses, killing Bad Bart's wife and child, now Bad Bart swears he'll get revenge on those heroes leaving town if that is the last thing he'll do!

T'Girl September 14 2012 06:26 PM

Re: Khan, Picard and the theme of revenge
 
Quote:

Maple Dog wrote: (Post 6957961)
They did not say if the Narada has transporters aboard,or shuttles to come in or out,i guess since its a mining ship,its primary fonction was mining,:confused:

Spock was placed on the surface of Delta Vega how?

:)


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