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RoJoHen August 24 2012 07:09 PM

Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
I get the purpose of including Picard in the DS9 premiere as a way to pass the torch, but what exactly would you say was gained by the angst Sisko had towards Picard? For story purposes, why did Jennifer need to be killed by the Borg? Could she not simply have died another way that didn't require shoehorning Locutus and Wolf 359 into the story?

It was kind of neat in that episode, but in retrospect it seems very odd considering neither Picard nor the Borg ever make another appearance on the show.

Deckerd August 24 2012 07:13 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
I think it was a deliberate attempt to make Sisko more of a maverick than the Picard mould. There was a tension between Sisko and his masters and this was part of the scene setting.

Considering his later ambivalence about following the absolutely correct Starfleet procedure on many things, you would have thought he would have had more compassion for Picard's situation, given that Picard WAS archetypal Starfleet, royally fucked over by the Borg.

Deranged Nasat August 24 2012 07:18 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Funnily enough, I'd guess that they were actually trying to avoid the sense that they were shoehorning things in; those things being Picard and the Enterprise. As you say, they clearly wanted Picard there to launch the new show and provide some welcome familiarity/reassurance. The Jennifer/Wolf 359 backstory was, I'd hazard a guess, intended to justify Picard's presence in the story beyond that - having established that the good captain would be in the pilot, I assume they wanted to tie him to the new lead in some fashion. Get something out of it other than "here's Picard. So...er, have fun..." ;) Having Sisko's wife die at Wolf 359 must have seemed a good way to do that, a way that provoked a bit of drama and avoided the pat and obvious connection that Sisko was some old friend of Picard.

RoJoHen August 24 2012 07:25 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Honestly, I think Picard's prior experience with the Bajorans (which the episode already references) would have been enough to justify his presence in the pilot without needing the Borg stuff. He would just be a senior officer giving Sisko his new orders.

Deranged Nasat August 24 2012 07:28 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Quote:

RoJoHen wrote: (Post 6853202)
Honestly, I think Picard's prior experience with the Bajorans (which the episode already references) would have been enough to justify his presence in the pilot without needing the Borg stuff.

Good point. Perhaps it was more that they wanted to connect Picard to Sisko in some way?

Deckerd August 24 2012 07:29 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
It's a continuity thing, obviously. I understand why it wasn't possible but one or two crossover episodes would have been cool. I liked O'Brien's transfer there and of course Worf's arrival just made DS9 for me but still. Seeing the Enterprise berthed there now and then would have been mighty fine.

RoJoHen August 24 2012 07:30 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 6853235)
Quote:

RoJoHen wrote: (Post 6853202)
Honestly, I think Picard's prior experience with the Bajorans (which the episode already references) would have been enough to justify his presence in the pilot without needing the Borg stuff.

Good point. Perhaps it was more that they wanted to connect Picard to Sisko in some way?

Perhaps. I just find it funny now in hindsight. I know that the Defiant was originally built to fight the Borg. Was DS9 planning to have the Borg pop up from time to time, and if so, what made them scrap that idea?

Captaindemotion August 24 2012 09:41 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Character development for Sisko. He started off the episode as this angry, unhappy man who couldn't find his place in the galaxy and was considering his position in Starfleet; he'd been given an assignment that was hardly the envy of officers everywhere.

His interactions with the Prophets snapped him out of his fugue and gave him purpose. By the end of the episode, he was more content and eager to begin his command.

To show that development, there had to be some traumatic event in Sisko's past, rather than just making him a grumpy old man. So linking it with Wolf 359, also probably the nadir of Picard's life was an inspired way to go - Picard served a purpose in the episode, rather than just a 'hey, look, the guy from the previous show' token cameo.

And it also established DS9's own tone. After the no-conflict TNG crew, it came as a shock to see Sisko being outright rude to the beloved Picard. It was also a creatively risky step - audiences may not have appreciated Sisko's attitude to such a popular character, particularly when we (unlike Sisko) knew how much angst the events of BOBW had caused Jean-Luc.

Deckerd August 24 2012 09:43 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Any officer worth his salt would have known what happened to Captain Picard.

Captaindemotion August 24 2012 09:48 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Quote:

Deckerd wrote: (Post 6853907)
Any officer worth his salt would have known what happened to Captain Picard.

He may have known what happened as a matter of fact, but emotionally, as a husband who lost his wife and the father of a small boy who lost his mother, he couldn't get past what had happened 'because of' Picard. Knowing something in your head is one thing, being able to cope with it in your heart is another.

This was the writers' way of helping set up DS9 and its crew as being different from Rodenberry's 'perfect' 24th century humans.

Deckerd August 24 2012 10:00 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
The idea that Sisko couldn't see beyond his prejudice undermines his ability to be a competent leader. He obviously couldn't be seen to be incompetent from the first episode so it was written that way for another reason.

Captaindemotion August 24 2012 10:22 PM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Quote:

Deckerd wrote: (Post 6854027)
The idea that Sisko couldn't see beyond his prejudice undermines his ability to be a competent leader. He obviously couldn't be seen to be incompetent from the first episode so it was written that way for another reason.

Well, here's what the Wikipedia guide to the episode says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissar...eep_Space_Nine)

Quote:

Sisko is resentful of the duty, having lost his wife Jennifer three years previously during the Borg attack at Wolf 359 and destruction of his former ship...Sisko becomes more despondent of the position as he gets his final orders from Captain Picard, the man Sisko holds responsible for Jennifer's death...

the entities point out that he continues to return to the moment of Jennifer's death. Sisko comes to the realization that he has been grieving over the loss of his wife and explains this to the aliens.

When the Enterprise arrives in response to Kira's earlier call for help, Sisko informs Picard that the wormhole aliens have helped him to overcome his grief about Jennifer's death and to move on, and that he plans to remain station commander indefinitely.
From memory alpha:

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Emissary_%28episode%29

Quote:

The conversation [between Sisko and Picard] is dominated by thinly-veiled hostility on Sisko's part, as he faces the man he holds responsible for the death of his wife.

Sisko confesses he's never been able to get over losing her and that inside he does still exist here. But finally Sisko realizes that Jennifer is really gone and he has to let her go forever. He leaves the quarters again, but this time he walks away finally leaving the trauma of his wife's death behind him.
So I'm really not sure what you're taking issue with. But maybe you could, you know, say what you think the reason is instead of just saying what it isn't.

Tiberius August 25 2012 04:33 AM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Quote:

RoJoHen wrote: (Post 6853253)
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 6853235)
Quote:

RoJoHen wrote: (Post 6853202)
Honestly, I think Picard's prior experience with the Bajorans (which the episode already references) would have been enough to justify his presence in the pilot without needing the Borg stuff.

Good point. Perhaps it was more that they wanted to connect Picard to Sisko in some way?

Perhaps. I just find it funny now in hindsight. I know that the Defiant was originally built to fight the Borg. Was DS9 planning to have the Borg pop up from time to time, and if so, what made them scrap that idea?

No, the Defiant came to help with the threat from the Dominion. They probably figures that a starship tough enough to fit the Borg would be good to have in case the Dominion attacked. And they were right...

Knight Templar August 25 2012 04:53 AM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
Interestingly enough, one of the behind the scenes books said that the DS9 producers considered several scripts that would've featured the Borg on Deep Space Nine but never found one they really liked.

R. Star August 25 2012 06:40 AM

Re: Locutus and Ben Sisko
 
I always liked the cameo of Picard in Emissary. Not only does it proverbially pass the torch as previously mentioned, but it serves two other purposes.

One is to give a bit of insight into Picard, you get to see how people outside his circle of acquaintances and people he's comfortable around react to his Borg past and that haunted look on Picard's face. Between Avery Brooks angry glare and Stewart's face deflating so much is said in that one snip without words.

Two is to establish that hey, Sisko isn't like Picard and this isn't the hunky dory TNG crew that sings kumbaya in the meeting room. Sisko's had a rough past, with a very physical manifestation of what he lost standing right there before him. He hasn't led the comfortable life, is a single dad, and between getting exiled to a junkyard station and having your wife's murderer be the one that's making your child grow up in that cesspool is it any wonder Sisko wasn't happy or less than civil?


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