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-   -   What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=184610)

Drago-Kazov August 9 2012 05:31 PM

What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
I mean every empire needs great tacticians, but klingons get challenged for stupid stuff alll the time. There was a good reason why mediaval kings tried to ban dueling.

Do klingons have an academy where they only train officers?

How do the noble houses fit into all of this? Does each noble house has his own academy? it would make sense considering how fast the houses chose allegiance in Redemption 1 and 2.

How can a klingon who sucks at melee but is a briliant tactician rise to a high post? Will the noble houses protect these kind of individuals from challanger from other houses? Do Klingon noble houses have a role for a ''consiglieri'' aka talented outsider in their house who is protected by them.

zarkon August 9 2012 06:31 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
It's not just challenges from below Klingons have to worry about but execution from above for incompetence or so their superior can save face, so people can rise purely by dead mens shoes without having to challenge themselves.

In Klingon Jellico remarks to gowron how absurd elevation by melee skill was, gowron replies that "right" will win or somesuch.

Also in the brilliant six book errand series, decently ranked officers have bodyguards. And if you're from a noble house, you can probably get more, so once you're up there, you're fine...assuming you can trust your bodyguards!

JD August 9 2012 07:10 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
I'm pretty sure they've mentioned an Imperial Academy in the shows and/or books. They seemed to imply that it was pretty much the Klingon equivalent of Starfleet Academy.

Timo August 9 2012 07:32 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
It will probably take quite a bit of maneuvering to keep your reputation intact if you cower behind a wall of bodyguards. It may be that this only ever happens if the young man or woman being protected is under the wing of a respected and highly positioned patron or matron whose virtue goes unchallenged. (I wonder if Krax had bodyguards - and if those took a step back every time somebody like Worf threw a legitimate challenge at the boy?)

To be "good at tactics" probably means you are socially skilled and can play your enemies against each other. If you can't do that, you can't manipulate your troops, either, and your brilliant battlefield strategies will remain confined to a simulator. This may be the Empire's loss, but the troops will probably be glad that none of their superiors are harboring wimpy savants who send troops to die in brilliant campaigns without putting themselves in the line.

Timo Saloniemi

Drago-Kazov August 10 2012 05:51 AM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Quote:

JD wrote: (Post 6778220)
I'm pretty sure they've mentioned an Imperial Academy in the shows and/or books. They seemed to imply that it was pretty much the Klingon equivalent of Starfleet Academy.

This maes me wonder how do they shield that from intrigue within the great houses.

Therin of Andor August 10 2012 03:21 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Quote:

Drago-Kazov wrote: (Post 6777728)
Do klingons have an academy where they only train officers?

http://youtu.be/Rf0SI5IyK_w

http://youtu.be/NEA-TEHeLaA

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star...lingon_Academy

Drago-Kazov August 11 2012 02:16 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
I wonder if there are dueling alternatives for those knid of people. Like phase pistol duel or battlemech duel or someting along those lines. Is it canon that klingons only duel with bathlet's?

Timo August 11 2012 02:42 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Nope, not canon as such. Admittedly, all we have seen is duels with melee weapons, but Worf vs. Duras at least was fought with dissimilar swords. Duras opted for a two-handed, two-edged single straight blade there. And Worf often practiced dueling with just his short mek'leth. We have also seen various types of spear - and Worf in "Birthright" seems to be saying not just that the gin'tak is a weapon of war rather than a farm implement, but that it is still being used for fighting.

Whether ranged weapons could be used for dueling, we don't know. But each side chooses its own weapons, it seems. Perhaps honor concerns discourage either side from picking a weapon that might prove too superior to what the opposition will pick, and thus subject the overarmed duelist to ridicule?

Timo Saloniemi

Drago-Kazov August 14 2012 08:59 AM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Quote:

Perhaps honor concerns discourage either side from picking a weapon that might prove too superior to what the opposition will pick, and thus subject the overarmed duelist to ridicule?
That seems to make sense.

Whatabout spontaneous challenges for captaincy and such? Did both side use the same weapons?

Timo August 14 2012 01:51 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Nobody seemed to mind when Riker used a transporter as the weapon to challenge Captain Kargan in "A Matter of Honor"... And Kargan subsequently punched Riker to get back his command. So no, no formal requirement for the type of weapons there, either, it seems.

Timo Saloniemi

Drago-Kazov August 14 2012 03:10 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
At least it probably has to be dishonorable killing the captain in sleep.

rfmcdpei August 14 2012 09:15 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 6787475)
Nope, not canon as such. Admittedly, all we have seen is duels with melee weapons, but Worf vs. Duras at least was fought with dissimilar swords. Duras opted for a two-handed, two-edged single straight blade there. And Worf often practiced dueling with just his short mek'leth. We have also seen various types of spear - and Worf in "Birthright" seems to be saying not just that the gin'tak is a weapon of war rather than a farm implement, but that it is still being used for fighting.

Whether ranged weapons could be used for dueling, we don't know. But each side chooses its own weapons, it seems. Perhaps honor concerns discourage either side from picking a weapon that might prove too superior to what the opposition will pick, and thus subject the overarmed duelist to ridicule?

In "The House of Quark", the willingness of D'Ghor to kill a Quark unable to defend himself against a trained warrior out for blood was enough to discredit him to the entire Klingon council.

Klingon society has to have mechanisms in place to prohibit the killing of n00bs.

Drago-Kazov August 14 2012 09:59 PM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Quote:

Klingon society has to have mechanisms in place to prohibit the killing of n00bs.
Why didn't Gowron just said that he challenges Toral to a duel when the little snot said he wanted to challenge him?

R. Star August 16 2012 12:16 AM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Quote:

Drago-Kazov wrote: (Post 6802784)
Quote:

Klingon society has to have mechanisms in place to prohibit the killing of n00bs.
Why didn't Gowron just said that he challenges Toral to a duel when the little snot said he wanted to challenge him?

Toral actually was the one who challenged Gowron to a fight. Picard didn't allow it to happen. It was implied that if Picard ruled Toral's challenge valid, an assassin would kill Gowron before the fight.

There is precident that if someone else kills the challenger to the High Council, the matter of their challenge is settled. Worf was the one who killed Duras, clearing the way for Gowron for example.

Drago-Kazov August 16 2012 07:56 AM

Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?
 
Quote:

Picard ruled Toral's challenge valid, an assassin would kill Gowron before the fight.
Why wouldn't the assasin kill him anyway, besides Gowron has to have best security in the quadrant.


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