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-   -   So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=175813)

The Overlord May 12 2012 07:41 AM

So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
There have been a few alternate timelines that suggested that if the Axis had won WWII, the Federation never would have existed. So does that mean Hitler's Reich really would have lasted a thousand years? Would these alternate timelines have had Nazi Star Ships annexing other star systems? Or is there something else about an Axis victory that would have changed history and prevented the Federation from being born?

captcalhoun May 12 2012 07:45 AM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
no empire lasts a thousand years.

The Overlord May 12 2012 07:53 AM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Quote:

captcalhoun wrote: (Post 6329590)
no empire lasts a thousand years.

It can be argued the Roman Empire lasted a thousand years, if we take into account the eastern Roman Empire. But this doesn't answer question, how would an Axis have changed conditions to the point that the Federation never existed in the first place? In both timelines when the Axis powers won the war, the federation never existed so Hitler's Reich lasted a thousand years or something else prevented the Federation from existing.

T'Girl May 12 2012 08:17 AM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
The series Enterprise seems to say that Earth was the driving force that brought the original members of the Federation together. Without Earth, the other founders would have just gone their own way.

Debatable, the Romulan War wouldn't have happen, the Romulans wouldn't have later been penned up behind the NZ in the 23rd and 24th centuries.

*******


The Egyptian Empire lasted just over 3000 years.
The Mayan civilization (semi-empire) was about 2900 years.
The Chinese empire was over 1300 years (depends on what you consider a "empire")
The Byzantines were a even 1000 years.

:)

The Overlord May 12 2012 08:24 AM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Quote:

captcalhoun wrote: (Post 6329590)
no empire lasts a thousand years.

Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 6329635)
The series Enterprise seems to say that Earth was the driving force that brought the original members of the Federation together. Without Earth, the other founders would have just gone their own way.

Debatable, the Romulan War wouldn't have happen, the Romulans wouldn't have later been penned up behind the NZ in the 23rd and 24th centuries.

:)

But would an Axis victory have prevented the Earth from becoming involved in Intergalactic society? Would the people of Earth never have overthrown the tyranny of the Axis powers? Would defeat in WWII for the Allies have meant that Earth will be dominated by the Axis powers for centuries to come or is there something else that Axis victory would have done to prevent Earth from joining the Federation?

T'Girl May 12 2012 09:07 AM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 6329641)
But would an Axis victory have prevented the Earth from becoming involved in Intergalactic society? Would the people of Earth never have overthrown the tyranny of the Axis powers? Would defeat in WWII for the Allies have meant that Earth will be dominated by the Axis powers for centuries to come or is there something else that Axis victory would have done to prevent Earth from joining the Federation?

First, Earth didn't join the Federation, Earth created the Federation, was the prime factor, was the driving force, in the Federation's "birth."

The movie First Contact says that it wasn't just Humans engaging in warp flight that brought interaction with the Vulcans, the first warp flight had to happen within a pretty narrow time window. Would the Nazis have hit that window? And would the Nazis have permitted the Vulcans to keep Human out of interstellar matters for a century, or would the Vulcan's have been told to "step aside?"

Would the Nazis have even tried to form a early coalition? There a certain amount of conjecture that it was Archer's action in forming peace between the Vulcans and the Andorians that started the Romulans on the path to war, the Romulans didn't want peace between the players. And it was the Romulan War that help the Humans in convincing the Federation's founder to form the Federation at all.

There was nothing about the Federation's formation that was inevitable.

:)

Timo May 12 2012 09:18 AM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Also, there's no reason to assume the Nazis would have remained a presence in the 2060s or the 2160s. It would suffice that their brief histrionics in the mid-20th century changed something about the Earth that then either stayed changed, or then caused a cascade of events.

Say, first contact with Vulcans might have gone poorly if not for the fact that Earth was ravaged by WWIII and wasn't fielding a fleet of heavily armed space warships at the time. And that would certainly have meant no Federation, even if the last Nazi in that timeline died in 1991.

Timo Saloniemi

MacLeod May 12 2012 09:59 AM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 6329581)
There have been a few alternate timelines that suggested that if the Axis had won WWII, the Federation never would have existed. So does that mean Hitler's Reich really would have lasted a thousand years? Would these alternate timelines have had Nazi Star Ships annexing other star systems? Or is there something else about an Axis victory that would have changed history and prevented the Federation from being born?

It is possible thatThe Federation is an alliance of worlds, the Nazi's were about conquest. even if they made an alliance with another race to further there goals sooner or later I suspect that they would have turned on them.

captcalhoun May 12 2012 05:53 PM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
maybe Cochrane's ancestors were killed when the Nazis attacked the US and so his creation of warp drive never happened and no one else was able to make it work.

-Brett- May 12 2012 05:58 PM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 6329605)
Quote:

captcalhoun wrote: (Post 6329590)
no empire lasts a thousand years.

It can be argued the Roman Empire lasted a thousand years, if we take into account the eastern Roman Empire. But this doesn't answer question, how would an Axis have changed conditions to the point that the Federation never existed in the first place? In both timelines when the Axis powers won the war, the federation never existed so Hitler's Reich lasted a thousand years...

2161 - 1945 =/= 1000.

Shatinator May 12 2012 05:59 PM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
If the Axis had succeeded in winning WWII. Their influenced may of certainly caused no such show as "Stat Trek" to be created and most certainly no stars of Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner to be involved in such a show, both of Jewish decent.

So, this whole discussion would become mote.


However, if we were to proceed and assume a future in a 'Star Trek'-like universe. One would need to imagine a justifiable continuity leading from the Third Reich dominance of Eastern / Western powers into the eventual evolution to some such established world government of "equality" between the nations.
But with out a over throw / radical restructuring of the Nazi Regime, the influence and strong heavy-handed approach would not subside.
In such a case we should, all being equal have a future tyranny, equivalent to a historical one; a fascist Federation. A coalition of the conquered, if you like; by an Imperial Earth.

Silvercrest May 12 2012 06:24 PM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 6329641)
But would an Axis victory have prevented the Earth from becoming involved in Intergalactic society? Would the people of Earth never have overthrown the tyranny of the Axis powers? Would defeat in WWII for the Allies have meant that Earth will be dominated by the Axis powers for centuries to come or is there something else that Axis victory would have done to prevent Earth from joining the Federation?

Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 6329716)
Also, there's no reason to assume the Nazis would have remained a presence in the 2060s or the 2160s. It would suffice that their brief histrionics in the mid-20th century changed something about the Earth that then either stayed changed, or then caused a cascade of events.

I believe the Blish novelization of COTEOF suggested the Earth tore itself apart in rebellion after the Nazis won. No more Axis, no more Allies, no space flight of any kind.

How Spock could have derived that using stone knives and bearskins is another question. ;)

MacLeod May 15 2012 05:19 PM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
There is also the factor that it was the US and the USSR engaging in a space race, that deveopled space travel. That might not have happened or it would have taken longer.

sonak May 15 2012 06:33 PM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Actually I tend to think that the Nazis would have been very interested in Space. But they would have been interested in it in terms of conquest. Nazi ideology needed enemies and war-Jews, Communists, etc. So if they succeeded in becoming the dominant power on Earth, what's next for them, other than to go out into Space looking for aliens to make war upon and conquer?

So it would be more like the mirror universe Terran Empire than the UFP.

Deimos Anomaly May 15 2012 07:03 PM

Re: So if the Axis won WWII, the Federation would have never existed?
 
Man, the Space Reich would make the Terran Empire look like Dr. Evil's "margarine of evil".


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