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Deckerd April 25 2012 06:50 PM

Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
Starbuck made a rousing speech at Cain's funeral where she finished by saying she had felt a lot safer with Cain around (I'm paraphrasing here - I only saw it once).

At the time nobody picked up on it but it's always jarred with me. Cain was a vindictive, murderous despot and turned her crew into rapists and thugs. Everyone on Galactica knew this. That speech really pissed me off.

137th Gebirg April 25 2012 07:04 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
^^^ Well, y'know, ol' Starbuck wasn't too terribly well wrapped herself... :) Very much a means-to-an-end personality type, almost identical to Cain. You also have to remember that Starbuck's mother was also terribly venomous and sadistic to her. So, she was most likely projecting those mommy issues on the situation, which makes perfect sense if you put all of it together like that. Cain was clearly a mother-authority figure of unbridled power and influence that Starbuck's damaged psyche forced her to respect and fear.

I still have visions of Billy sneaking down into the landing bay, late on the night before the funeral when nobody was around, and peeled the Admiral's pins off Cain's uniform to give to Rosslyn for Adama's promotion afterwards. Would have been fitting... :D

Deckerd April 25 2012 07:36 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
Did we know all that about Starbuck during the New Caprica arc? I thought that all came later.

Not the arc but the meeting of Galactica and Pegasus. You know what I mean.

clint g April 25 2012 07:40 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
I thought you found out some of that stuff when Starbuck went back to Caprica and visited her old apartment. It's been a while, perhaps it's time for a re-watch :D

Harvey April 25 2012 07:50 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
We knew that she had injuries indicating abuse; I can't recall what "Valley of Darkness" revealed about her home life, though, besides Phillip Glass being her father.

Deckerd April 25 2012 07:55 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
[snigger]

137th Gebirg April 25 2012 07:56 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
Quote:

Deckerd wrote: (Post 6240421)
Did we know all that about Starbuck during the New Caprica arc? I thought that all came later.

Not the arc but the meeting of Galactica and Pegasus. You know what I mean.

Not all of it. I think the show-runners had a vague idea of her parental baggage, but didn't flesh it out until later. Regardless of that, however, Starbuck was still not always terribly stable. Her extreme anguish over getting Zak killed also had a lot to do with that in the early seasons.

Hartzilla2007 April 25 2012 08:01 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
Quote:

Deckerd wrote: (Post 6240172)
Starbuck made a rousing speech at Cain's funeral where she finished by saying she had felt a lot safer with Cain around (I'm paraphrasing here - I only saw it once).

At the time nobody picked up on it but it's always jarred with me. Cain was a vindictive, murderous despot and turned her crew into rapists and thugs. Everyone on Galactica knew this. That speech really pissed me off.

One of the fun things about Razor is that Starbuck gets smacking in the head with this when Shaw brings ups that shooting at the enemy even when your own fighters (one of which Starbuck was in) are in the way is something Cain would have done.

The Dominion April 26 2012 03:02 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
Prior to Pegasus Adama was leaning towards becoming a despot who wanted the Galactica to have full control of the fleet. And I can't see Tigh being much more of a responsible leader than Cain at that time either. I think seeing what Cain was doing kept Adama from making similar mistakes.

I think that Cain was, and would have been a great leader, but her personal vendetta against the Cylons drove her over the edge in her tactics.

Deckerd April 26 2012 03:44 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
She threw away any chance she had of being a great leader when she murdered civilians and stole their means of survival. Adama may have had his flaws but his stated aim from the start was to keep as many people alive as possible. Quite the opposite of Cain in fact.

The Dominion April 26 2012 05:46 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
What I'm saying is that Cain was a very competent leader, especially compared to the two people who succeeded her and Tigh, but she did horrible things because of her own agenda for revenge. Had she not had that character flaw, she would have been an extremely valuable member of the Colonial Fleet, and I think that's what Starbuck meant in saying that she felt safer with her around.

137th Gebirg April 26 2012 07:16 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
I'm pretty sure Cain was relatively "normal" prior to the attack. Sure, she was a go-getter. She rose in the ranks early in her career. Assuming she rose on merit alone, potential nefarious reasons aside, she probably was an excellent Commander. Then, two things happened - the sneak attack and the realization that Gina was a Six. The former hardened her into battle mode. We could assume this is something she trained for. The Gina thing is what put her over the edge into sociopath territory. The fact that she was sleeping with an enemy, who had access to her ship at the highest levels, responsible for the death of billions, and without ever having even suspected a little...well, I think that was a serious ego-crusher for Cain which put her on a one-way trip to dementia. No doubt she fancied herself a good judge of character up until that point.

To quote Rush "Emotion Detector":
Quote:

Right to the heart of the matter
Right to the beautiful part
Illusions are painfully shattered
Right where discovery starts

In the secret wells of emotion
Buried deep in our hearts

Wereghost April 26 2012 07:39 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
Quote:

clint g wrote: (Post 6240448)
I thought you found out some of that stuff when Starbuck went back to Caprica and visited her old apartment. It's been a while, perhaps it's time for a re-watch :D

We got a hint of parental abuse in The Farm, when Simon (pretending to be a human doctor) comments that Starbuck's fingers on one hand seemed to have all been broken in the same place (if I recall).

The Dominion April 26 2012 08:21 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
Quote:

137th Gebirg wrote: (Post 6246211)
I'm pretty sure Cain was relatively "normal" prior to the attack. Sure, she was a go-getter. She rose in the ranks early in her career. Assuming she rose on merit alone, potential nefarious reasons aside, she probably was an excellent Commander. Then, two things happened - the sneak attack and the realization that Gina was a Six. The former hardened her into battle mode. We could assume this is something she trained for. The Gina thing is what put her over the edge into sociopath territory. The fact that she was sleeping with an enemy, who had access to her ship at the highest levels, responsible for the death of billions, and without ever having even suspected a little...well, I think that was a serious ego-crusher for Cain which put her on a one-way trip to dementia. No doubt she fancied herself a good judge of character up until that point.

But I don't think the betrayal was what hardened her, just the final straw. Razor revealed the loss of her sister to the Cylons which I think was the trauma that really made it a personal thing with them. It also makes me wonder what Adama would have done if the Cylons would have killed Zak.

Harvey April 26 2012 08:34 PM

Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain
 
Quote:

137th Gebirg wrote: (Post 6240598)
Quote:

Deckerd wrote: (Post 6240421)
Did we know all that about Starbuck during the New Caprica arc? I thought that all came later.

Not the arc but the meeting of Galactica and Pegasus. You know what I mean.

Not all of it. I think the show-runners had a vague idea of her parental baggage, but didn't flesh it out until later. Regardless of that, however, Starbuck was still not always terribly stable. Her extreme anguish over getting Zak killed also had a lot to do with that in the early seasons.

Most of what ended up on screen in seasons two and three about Kara is actually in the series bible, dated December 17, 2003. It's an interesting read, and shows that a lot of thought went into the characters on the show (which is probably why the show was best when focusing on character drama, rather than plot theatrics).


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