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-   -   The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=167968)

mickemoose March 26 2012 03:01 AM

The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
After reading hundreds of posts on this board as a "spectator," I've finally decided to join in.

Looking at my Polar Lights 1/1000 scale TOS Enterprise got me thinking about what's inside the support pylon that connects the saucer to the engineering hull.

From port to starboard, that area of the ship is quite narrow. Plus, I envision a myriad of structural support beams, power transfer conduits, life support conduits (i.e. freshwater & wastewater lines, air lines, etc.) Let's not forget there's also a vertical turbolift shaft that passes through there and at least one long vertical Jeffries tube (with the 3-sided red ladder) or, several staggered Jeffries tube ladders.

When you consider all this, there's not much usable space in the pylon for anything functional. That's why I lean toward Doug Drexler's depiction of the pylon in his TOS cutaway which shows, basically, an uninhabitable area.

http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/10/11/1701-cutaway/

On the other hand, I count (5) horizontal rows of windows on both sides of the pylon. This evidence makes the FJ blueprint, showing observation decks in this area, convincing.

Then again, there's already an observation deck at the aft end of the engineering hull, at the hangar bay ("Conscience of the King"). (Also, possibly another observation deck on the other side of the hangar bay since the window pattern on the opposite side is an exact duplicate.) How many observation decks do you need??

If there are "rooms" inside the pylon, as suggested by the windows, I would think these may represent inspection/testing areas for maintenance personnel.

Any other thoughts?

Timo March 26 2012 08:06 AM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
The ship in general has precious few windows, which makes their presence in the neck all the more curious.

Then again, we have seen that windows may be shuttered unless commanded to open, as in "Mark of Gideon". Perhaps the outer hull is filled with portholes, but most are kept closed almost 100% of the time - and the open holes in the neck actually stand proof to there being nobody there who'd care about an exterior view, which is why nobody bothers to close those things. (Clearly, Starfleet doesn't believe in darkening a starship for tactical reasons, as the bright navigation beacons continue to flash in all circumstances!)

The neck might be argued to be the part of the ship with the best view to the other parts of the ship, which may be the overriding concern in window placement in starships of the era. But since the portholes we see do not bulge out at all, the view they offer is in fact quite poor...

Plotwise, we have some references to interior spaces on Deck 12 - a deck necessarily in the neck if we believe in the model where the saucer has 11 decks. Spock takes Mudd and his women there to meet Kirk in "Mudd's Women" (unless we decide he takes them there to be decontaminated and frisked before allowing them to enter the primary hull where Kirk waits, and the editing just skips this detour); the other Deck 12 references in Memory Alpha are arguable.

If we wriggle out of the "Mudd's Women" reference, we haven't seen the interior of the neck. But if we keep the reference, then after the turbolift ride to the supposed Deck 12, we see a space there that looks like Kirk's later quarters, with this corner
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...womenhd142.jpg
and this engineering-related alcove
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...womenhd125.jpg
and no sign of windows. A bit difficult to fit in there IMHO.

Quote:

Let's not forget there's also a vertical turbolift shaft that passes through there and at least one long vertical Jeffries tube (with the 3-sided red ladder) or, several staggered Jeffries tube ladders.
We don't know if the shaft is vertical - an angled one would probably make more sense. Where does the evidence for a vertical ladderway (higher than two decks tall, anyway) come from?

The movie version of the ship appears to have a ladderway (or a stretch thereof) as seen when Spock climbs down to engineering to save the ship. It's also somewhat differently shaped. But while still featuring portholes, it also appears to feature an externally visible vertical element - a differently colored band of hull, perhaps marking the turboshaft. Or then that plasma conduit or warp core or whatever that goes up from engineering - but since the set also features a corridor extending forward from engineering, the intended Probert placement of that vertical shaft must be dismissed, which means the shaft won't be vertical all the way up but rather angled along the aft edge of the neck. That is, if it goes up at all, and doesn't truncate in some piece of machinery in the neck, say, a fuel tank like in TNG.

The TOS interior may have been identical to the TMP one, and possibly even functionally similar to the TNG one. Or then not.

Timo Saloniemi

King Daniel Into Darkness March 26 2012 10:57 AM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
I assume the lounges as seen in Franz Joseph's old blueprints.

Timo March 26 2012 01:49 PM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
I guess the choice of innards is symbolic of whether we think that the neck connects the two hulls, or separates them.

A maze of shafts, conduits and piping would act as a connecting element. A series of lounges would indicate space unused for connecting and thus shunted to some other use.

There are good reasons to argue either way. Since there are two hulls to begin with, Starfleet must be thinking in terms of making them separate - so a structure between them is likely to be a separator rather than a connector... Or perhaps rather Starfleet wants to operate two different sets of machinery and capabilities, neither of which can make do without the other, and thus needs to install a connecting piece that allows for the sharing of resources.

FWIW, surprisingly many starship designs feature this "bottleneck", indicating that Starfleet likes such choke points and doesn't want them any wider than absolutely necessary. The ability to separate the two hulls is quoted as a rationale for this, implicitly or explicitly. Again, one may argue that the separator is built without connections so that it would be better at separating - or that the separator exists in the first place because a connection is still needed and the two hulls cannot readily fly on their own even though Starfleet wants them to. But the extremes are unlikely to be the right answer, because we also see "intermediate" necks, such as the extremely thick Excelsior one, negating many connecting or separating arguments.

Timo Saloniemi

Christopher March 26 2012 03:00 PM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
I don't think the Drexler cutaway depicts that area as "uninhabitable." If you look closely, there are some gold outlines of door panels and curved struts that match the shape of outlines in the crew quarters, briefing rooms, etc. in the saucer. That implies there's some kind of occupied area there.

Also, in "Dagger of the Mind," there's a reference in dialogue to section C, deck 14, and both the Drexler cutaway and the FJ blueprints seem to agree that deck 14 would be the lowermost deck of the dorsal. (And the scene where a crewmember spots Van Gelder on that deck only shows a small section of the corridors, so it's not too inconsistent with that possibility.) "Mudd's Women" also implies that the captain's quarters are on deck 12, which would also be in the dorsal, but since that was later contradicted, it's best disregarded as a continuity glitch.

mickemoose March 26 2012 10:43 PM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
Timo,

Good points for either argument. However, I'm still a "student of the neck as a connector theory" rather than a separator for reasons you already mentioned (i.e. both hulls are dependent upon each other). Actually, I see the saucer as more dependent on the engineering hull for survival since power generation and life support is provided by the engineering hull. In the event of separation, the saucer can sustain itself for awhile, but, all by itself, without contact with starfleet or a starbase, it's nothing more than a lifeboat living on borrowed time. Power will be exhausted, and it would take you forever to make any headway traveling at impulse speed.

In this respect, the neck can be seen as an "umbilical cord" (if you will) for the saucer.

You mentioned:

"We don't know if the shaft is vertical - an angled one would probably make more sense. Where does the evidence for a vertical ladderway (higher than two decks tall, anyway) come from?

Without power, or a tubolift malfunction, there must an alternate way to get from one hull to the other. (Refer to Scotty and his "lads" using the ladder to climb down to engineering in the "Doomsday Machine.")

Hmmm...the idea of an angled turbolift is interesting. In most fan-inspired cutaways, the only turbolift path I've seen drawn out in the neck is straight across to the back and straight down. I've even seen a stairway that parallels the back end of the neck.

Timo March 27 2012 11:20 AM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
A stairway would probably be preferable to a ladderway in any case. Why crawl or climb when you can run?

An angled turboshaft would be more practical if there are no stops inside the neck; the shaft wouldn't have to feature stations that allow the cab to rotate back to vertical (taking somewhat more room than a standard station) at every deck, then.

Should we consider ST5:TFF sufficient proof that there exists a perfectly vertical and rather wide lift shaft from the secondary hull (from Deck 13 at least) to the level of the saucer (at deck 7/8)? ;) If so, the feature might just as well have been there in TOS already.

Timo Saloniemi

Pauln6 March 27 2012 08:40 PM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
These are some notes I made a while back. I'm in the process of sealing the lighting in my Polar Lights saucer section so I guess the neck will be the next step.


Dorsal I Deck
This deck is utilised for various engineering systems such as a Gravity Dampening Field Generator, all of which can be accessed via the Jeffries Tube. The vertical Impulse Drive Feed Conduit Engineering Core runs through here. A small Observation Lounge sits at the forward end.

Observation Lounge

Dorsal J Deck
This deck is utilised for various engineering systems such as life support, all of which can be accessed via the Jeffries Tube. The vertical Impulse Drive Feed Conduit Engineering Core runs through here. A small Observation Lounge sits at the forward end.

Observation Lounge

Life Support I-M Decks


Dorsal K Deck
This deck is utilised for various engineering systems such as a force-field generator to protect the pylon, and emergency battery banks, all of which can be accessed via the Jeffries Tube. The vertical Impulse Drive Feed Conduit Engineering Core runs through here.

Shield Generator

Emergency Battery Bank


Dorsal L Deck
This deck houses the upper Torpedo Complex. Two Torpedo Casing and Staging Bays hold ten Photon Torpedoes each. The warheads and variable payload modules are stowed in the Warhead Locker. The torpedoes are mated with a payload and fuelled and then lowered by crane through the well in the Staging Bay to the Launch Bays on M Deck. Paired exhaust ducts run aft from above the launch tubes to the Torpedo Exhaust Vent. The vertical Impulse Drive Feed Conduit Engineering Core also runs through here.

Torpedo Casing & Staging Bays (2)
Ordnance Officer (Sec En) x
Ordnance Chiefs (Sec CPO x2)
Torpedo Specialists (3 Sec Cr x 3) xxx

Torpedo Exhaust Ducting (2)

Torpedo Exhaust Vent

Torpedo Casing Storage (2)

Torpedo Warhead Locker


Dorsal M Deck (Torpedo Deck)
This deck houses the port and starboard Torpedo Launch Bays. The photon torpedo is lowered through the well from the Torpedo Staging Bay on L Deck, to the Conveyor Assembly. The torpedo is conveyed forward to the Launch Tube. Two independent bays allow the ship to retain torpedo capability if one of the bays is damaged. Launch Bay A is serviced by Docking Port Four and Launch Bay B is serviced by Docking Port Five. The vertical Impulse Drive Feed Conduit Engineering Core also runs through here.

Torpedo Launch Bay (2)
Torpedo Specialists (2 Sec Cr x 3) xx

Torpedo Launch Tubes (2)

Docking Ports Four & Five (2)

Emergency Battery Bank

Santaman March 27 2012 10:51 PM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
The TMP novel said something (been a decade since I read it)about a criss cross of structural members bulkheads and machines with a few alcoves scattered between them that served as little places where one could be alone for a bit while looking out of a porthole, I don't think that it would be very much different before the 1701 was refitted.

As for connector or seperator, seperation is a last ditch attempt to prevent the whole crew from being blown up so I imagine that the neck is mainly there to keep the two hulls together..

Maurice March 27 2012 10:56 PM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
This was discussed in Shaw's (now closed) topic Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans. The subject of the dorsal's arrangement and hull thickness is addressed starting on this page (link), and a post specifically showing how a USN ship's cross section looks is here (link).

YARN March 28 2012 01:09 AM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
So how long and how wide is the space inside the neck area?

Assuming no structural support at all, how wide would that area be?

Seems to me like you could lean against the wall and look out the port side window, then pirouette and look out the starboard window.

blssdwlf March 28 2012 01:30 AM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
The TOS E's neck is about 19' wide overall on a 947' long ship. Based on the window shots from "The Conscience of the King" and "The Mark of Gideon", the interior hull separation to the exterior hull is about 6" (I have not tried to measure it) so about 18' interior width.

However, this probably would not fit an 8' wide hallway and Kirk's quarters in it.

FWIW, I put deck 11 at the top of the secondary hull as I was not able to fit 11 decks in the primary hull so for me there was no problem with Kirk's quarters on deck 12 for a few episodes... :)

Maurice March 28 2012 02:39 AM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
By Shaw's calculation based on Jefferies plans (and assuming a 947' ship) the wall to wall distance would be about 16 feet. Here he shows a possible use for the space and compares it to a small restaurant.

http://www.shawcomputing.net/racerx/...icers_club.jpg
Graphic by Shaw

Timo March 28 2012 08:12 AM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
Quote:

However, this probably would not fit an 8' wide hallway and Kirk's quarters in it.
Unless you put them in sideways. Would also explain why we never see those windows on the walls - they are actually skylights! :vulcan:

Semi-seriously, Starfleet seems enamored with flat structures, most prominently those funny saucers that even on big starships can only accommodate a deck or three. Arranging the interiors in a sort of "urban sprawl" seems to be preferred. And the neck would be a practical flat structure if treated sideways - probably quite a bit more practical than if sliced into decks in the upright position.

"Deck 12" could then refer to the entire neck, from saucer bottom to engineering hull top, and feature numerous curving and branching corridors.

Timo Saloniemi

Forbin March 28 2012 04:17 PM

Re: The Mystery Inside the TOS Primary Hull Support Pylon
 
Yarn, Zis iz Schtar Fleet. Ve do not... pirouette here!


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