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-   -   Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=160678)

The Overlord February 7 2012 01:10 AM

Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi? I would say so, he seemed far more cunning, ruthless and sinister then the average Ferengi. He was willing to murder members of his own crew in gruesome ways to get his way and appeared to be friendly with the Federation before his true motives were revealed. He was also willing to endanger several hundred federation colonists to achieve his goal.

Cakemixo February 7 2012 11:29 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
Fajo had a more dictator style of getting things done. He also consealed his intentions better than the Ferengi of TNG. I think he was a stronger character than the Ferengi.

Savage Dragon February 7 2012 05:13 PM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
His character would have been a good model for the Ferengi if they had gone the route of having the Ferengi be more sinster.

The Dominion February 7 2012 06:19 PM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
He came off as being far more insane than the regular Ferengi.

Ugly Sweater February 7 2012 06:51 PM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
I don't think the Ferengi are inherently bad as "merchant villains" just that, well... They weren't done well.

Fajo was just more like a the owner of a shady pawn shop with perhaps a touch of flamboyance and criminal activity.

The Ferengi it seems, at first, were just supposed to be something like anarchists that valued possessions and wealth above all else including civility. The execution....

Didn't work.

I'd like to blame the make-up, the costuming or something like that but none of that really was it. It was portrayal.

In "EaF" Picard tells Zorn that he hopes the Ferengi will find Zorn "as tasty as they did their last business partner" or words to that effect. That's a lot to live up to and suggests a lot. Taken literally it could mean that the Ferengi devour people they can profit from and take the remaining assets. Taken figuratively pretty much means the Ferengi will come, strip you of anything valuable and then skip town leaving you in shambles.

There's a lot that could have been done.

Then "The Last Outpost" comes and the Ferengi are snarling little trolls squealing at the sound of thunder.

Yeah.

Doesn't impose me with much fear.

davejames February 7 2012 07:41 PM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
I think the Ferengi ended up being a cool creation in the end (mostly thanks to Quark), but yeah, as a villain they were nearly impossible to take seriously.

Maybe if they had been larger and more imposing the idea could have worked. But it seemed like the producers were trying so hard to make them "strange and alien" that they forgot that they still needed to be, you know... intimidating.

davisn456 February 7 2012 08:55 PM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
The TNG Ferengi were so much different than DS9, I think because Picard mostly tangled with the officers on the Ferengi Alliance ships. Daemon Bok was willing to kill Picard for revenge, the Ferengi in "Force of Nature" took shots at the Enterprise when they entered the Hekaras Corridor, and in "Peak Performance", the Ferengi nearly crippled the Enterprise. However, even among the "officers", there seems to be a code that they follow making them very different from Kivas Fajo. Maybe just the rules of acquisition, but it seems a little more than that. At least one good example of that exists, like when Kazago relieved Bok of command.

The Ferengi of DS9 were all, or mostly civilians, and they definitely seemed to have a different rulebook. However, with a couple exceptions (the assassin hired by Quark in "The Magnificent Ferengi", and maybe Quark's cousin Gaila), I'm not sure that Ferengi would ever go to the lengths of killing for profit. Devious yes, but not murderers.

Kivas was so obsessed with his collection that he was willing to make an enemy of the Federation for his prize, and obviously lost. The Ferengi would more likely manipulate the situation so they came out on top but maintained the relationship.

Just an opinion...hope I backed it up with enough references :-)

Ugly Sweater February 8 2012 12:19 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
Quote:

davejames wrote: (Post 5772064)
I think the Ferengi ended up being a cool creation in the end (mostly thanks to Quark), but yeah, as a villain they were nearly impossible to take seriously.

Maybe if they had been larger and more imposing the idea could have worked. But it seemed like the producers were trying so hard to make them "strange and alien" that they forgot that they still needed to be, you know... intimidating.

Agreed, DS9 did go a long way toward fleshing out the Ferengi and making them a bit more credible Trek alien species but hardly makes up for the grandness they set-up to be in early-TNG. And well, even on DS9 pretty much any episode that focused solely on the Ferengi or around the Grand Nagus (with all respect, admiration, and love to Wallice Shawn) was OtT absurd.

Mojochi February 8 2012 03:43 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
I think the only Ferengi that was a well made villain was Bok in "The Battle". The guy they had playing him was phenomenal. Totally worthy of a revisit in 'Bloodlines"

The idea that they made it a Ferengi line of reasoning by having a "life for a life" be a sort of psychotic commerce was brilliant

You can not put a price on life!

Oh, but you can, Picard. You can pay me with your son's life

Ugly Sweater February 8 2012 04:15 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
Bok was pretty good and came across as a somewhat credible villain.

Enterprise is Great February 8 2012 05:25 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
Quote:

Trekker4747 wrote: (Post 5775754)
Bok was pretty good and came across as a somewhat credible villain.

Yeah, he was pretty smart for a Ferengi.

Mojochi February 9 2012 02:59 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
Quote:

Enterprise is Great wrote: (Post 5776159)
Quote:

Trekker4747 wrote: (Post 5775754)
Bok was pretty good and came across as a somewhat credible villain.

Yeah, he was pretty smart for a Ferengi.

And far more cold & villainous than any other Ferengi I recall

Anwar February 9 2012 05:04 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
The problem with the Ferengi was that they were directed to act like these primitive little monkey things more befitting the Wizard of Oz (I'm speaking of "Last Outpost" only). It was pretty hard to take them seriously as anything but random raiders who acted goofy.

Fajo was allowed to act like a serious character, a calculating and murderous one (if need be) with a far better first impression.

If the Ferengi were portrayed more as background manipulators who organized space criminal/mercenary groups to work for them without anything to tie it to the Ferengi while presenting themselves as benevolent ambassadors of progress/businessmen then they'd have been effective characters.

GNDN February 9 2012 05:09 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
While Bok was the stronger villain, I found Kazago to be the far more interesting character.

JRoss February 9 2012 08:02 AM

Re: Was Kivas Fajo a better "merchant villain" then the Ferengi?
 
Kivas Fajo worked well because Saul Rubinek was playing him.


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