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-   -   Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone.. (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=133184)

Infern0 December 4 2010 06:47 AM

Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone..
 
After Q Who?

I thought the use of them there, and the context was brilliant.

They were literally an unstoppable force, shown by Q to show the humans what was out there, a reminder basically of how vunerable humanity was.

After that i thought they really weakened with every appearance, eventually becoming cannon-fodder for god-ger

Gul Re'jal December 4 2010 06:53 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
I think they ruined the Borg adding the Queen. They were much more menacing without a single mind behind, but as a pure hive. Now it's just a slave race with some ambitious lady at the helm. Without her they would be more of a mystery and harder to understand.

And 7of9 gave too much info, making them dull in the end. All terrifying mystery gone :(

Paradon December 4 2010 07:04 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
I think without the queen(s) they wouldn't be able to function. They do all the negotiations and stuff like that.... Think of the Borg as a single collective (one being) and the queen is just a central nervous system. I don't think they intelligent enough to adapt to something they don't know. They have to scan you or assimilate you or the information about you in order to adapt. Species 8472 can't be assimilate, so the best they can do is kill them and that was because Janeway was helping them to learn more about them.

C.E. Evans December 4 2010 07:12 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
I think that after "Best of Both Worlds," that should have been it for the Borg. But they were too good a bad guy to be left alone by the writers and producers, so downhill was the only way to go. "First Contact" made the Borg scary again, but it also gave us the Borg Queen.

I won't even talk about Hugh, The Friendly Borg in TNG's "I, Borg." I simply refuse to do that...

The less you know about a monster, the more dangerous it is. Once you get to know them and learn how to counter and manipulate them, they lose their power and become more or less a typical moustache-twirling villain to be defeated every time they appear.

Ideally, the Borg were the ultimate Star Trek enemy. A force that should logically have destroyed the Federation in their next encounter after "Best of Both Worlds" by sending multiple Borg cubes towards Earth. But since that would have pretty much ended the story of Star Trek--or worse, turn it into a Battlestar Galactica clone--the Borg had to be neutered in such a way that their full potential could never be unleashed against our heroes...even in their own home turf in the Delta Quadrant.

Paradon December 4 2010 07:44 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
I think what makes them scary is that you know in the end they will assimilate you no matter what. There are no if's or but's. They don't have individuality like other alien cultures do.... They are like bacterias or viruses. They will keep coming and assimilate you, destroying everything in their path.

ngc7293 December 4 2010 07:48 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
Best of Both Worlds, though good, was a mistake. I forgot the metaphor, but once you bring out the monster, you can't put it back in (still can't remember it :) ) Anyway, once the writers had the Borg attacking Earth there was no turning back.

If they had left it in Q's hands left the Borg somewhere out THERE, Q could come back every once in a while with the Borg THREAT or the imagined threat.

The story lines are possible but too late. If they did it all right, in Voyager, Janway would have taken the longway AROUND Borg space out of fear (heck, Q could even drop the Borg threat if she got bold) and they would run in to other things. There might still be a way to run into "38 of D".

RyuRoots December 4 2010 11:17 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
I think the Borg were handled mostly well, for a while. TNG did good with them (Descent notwithstanding, but as they weren't part of the collective, I don't really think it's villain decay or anything). First Contact did a good job with them, but unfortunately introduced the Borg Queen, a horrible idea if there ever was one. Scorpion was amazing, too. It wasn't until after that things went downhill, I think

The Borg were a great foe, and I think it was good they reused them, and they did more good than bad with them for a good while.


By the way, I'm calling it now. This is gonna become one of those threads, since Voyager and The Borg will doubtlessly come up again.

Tosk December 4 2010 11:44 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
Quote:

Paradon wrote: (Post 4572041)
I think without the queen(s) they wouldn't be able to function. They do all the negotiations and stuff like that....

That's what makes the Queen boring. The whole 'need a mouthpiece' thing worked once with Locutus, but what do the Borg need to negotiate for?

And besides...if there was a Queen all along, why did they need Locutus anyway?

The Borg, as a villain, are perfectly constructed to become less interesting every single time they are used.

T'Girl December 4 2010 11:51 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
Quote:

ngc7293 wrote: (Post 4572094)
I forgot the metaphor, but once you bring out the monster, you can't put it back in.

Pandora's box?

Quote:

Paradon wrote: (Post 4572041)
Think of the Borg as a single collective (one being) and the queen is just a central nervous system.

I think the Borg collective as more vast number of enslaved races, with the queens in the role of the slave master. BoBW and Unimatrix zero showed that the drones retain their internal personality, their simply aren't in control of their bodies actions. It's a never ending horror show.

One of the thing TPTB really got right in FC was the overt fear on the part of the Enterprise's crew at the thought of facing the Borg and being assimilated.

Assimilation equal enslavement.

:)

Myasishchev December 4 2010 12:29 PM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
Pretty much agree, although I liked "I, Borg," because that's really more of a story about Picard's morality than anything else. Anyway, that would've been my cutoff.

There was literally no way for them to have been interesting as an ongoing threat, given their conception: a force of nature with no real personality. And giving them a personality really ruined them--of course, giving them the personality of Snidely Whiplash made it even worse.

To have been consistently interesting, they'd have had to have posed an ideological threat as well as a physical one, and they never posed an ideological threat, because they were conceived as abhorrent. If the Borg way of life had been tempting--if the Borg Collective had been less of a slave pen and more of participatory Matrix--then an indefinite number of stories could have been told about them.

As it stood, all you really had was a zombie story, and zombie stories are fundamentally limited creatures.

C.E. Evans December 4 2010 02:45 PM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
Quote:

Myasishchev wrote: (Post 4572326)
As it stood, all you really had was a zombie story, and zombie stories are fundamentally limited creatures.

Essentially, space zombies was the approach that was taken with the Borg in First Contact--the Enterprise was effectively turned into "Night of the Living Dead" for that story--but the Borg Queen gave the zombies a voice and an opportunity for civilized conversation about their motives and plans for the future.

Most zombie stories don't go that far--and with good reason, IMO...

CaptJimboJones December 4 2010 03:10 PM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
Borg are very hit and miss IMO. I enjoyed the first part of BOBW, but the second part, particularly the ending, was utterly ridiculous. I, Borg presented an interesting ethical dilemma but then devolved into moralistic finger-wagging of the worst sort and ended was a decision by Picard that, in a rational world, should have ended his career with a court martial. I thought Scorpion was fairly well done, and I loved First Contact.

Interestingly I also thought that Regeneration, which was excoriated by the fans at the time, was among the very best of all the Borg episodes - a very taut, tightly-plotted thriller in which the Borg were actually frightening again. It was also frustrating in the sense that it demonstrated that the Enterprise staff had the ability to produce very well-written episodes, and yet the majority of shows in that second season were terribly written.

Anwar December 4 2010 03:14 PM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
The Borg were done as an enemy after BOBW, if you ask me. Once an enemy has been shown to be THAT powerful and comes THAT close to victory, there's nowhere to go but down.

If they HAD to use them again then "Scorpion" should've killed them all (and all the 8472 as well). Any other Borg stories after that should've been about the Feds running into folks who're trying to use leftover Borg technology, and the Feds trying to stop them because the tech will assimilate the raiders and re-create the Borg.

RyuRoots December 4 2010 10:40 PM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
Quote:

Anwar wrote: (Post 4572480)
The Borg were done as an enemy after BOBW, if you ask me. Once an enemy has been shown to be THAT powerful and comes THAT close to victory, there's nowhere to go but down.

I dunno, I think both First Contact and Scorpion did a good job as presenting them as a frighteningly powerful foe.

Anwar December 5 2010 12:46 AM

Re: Anyone else think they should have left the Borg well enough alone
 
Not really, FC could've been about any enemy using time-travel as a weapon. And it needed the Queen as an easy out of killing off the Collective (kill her, the Collective on the ENT-E all died)

"Scorpion" did work, but it also highlights how limited the Borg are: They needed to introduce ANOTHER overpowered foe to do anything with the Borg. AND folks still complain that VOY had too big an impact on the storyline.


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