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-   -   If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again... (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=127542)

JanewayRulz! August 24 2010 01:23 AM

If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
He would have really twerked me off.

Quote:

When it comes to Star Trek: Voyager, Braga can now say that he would do something different if he had the chance to redo the Voyager finale. “It was my feeling that Seven Of Nine should have died,” he said. “If you watch the episode Human Error, written by Andre Bormanis, it was not only a heart-breaking episode in that Seven Of Nine learns, as she begins to explore her human emotions, that she can’t experience them. There’s a Borg chip inside her that will kill her if she tries to do so. First of all, that’s kind of an interesting ‘rape victim’ analogy or whatever you want to call it, about a damaged woman who can’t get past what happened to her, but I also always saw it as a crucial episode that would set up the finale.
“This was a woman who knew she was neither here nor there. She couldn’t go back to the Borg, nor would she want to, but she could never be fully human, so she was doomed. And I wanted to have her sacrifice herself to get her shipmates home.”
:wtf:

I can hear the gnashing of teeth now, from the anti "all Seven all the time" crowd had he gone through with such a plan.

Unfortunately, for once I would have been one of them but not just because it would be Seven yet again to the fore. In fact there are many reasons I would be up in arms over this reinterpretation.

Not the least of which is the author's contention that he'd like to show Seven as the "damaged woman who can't get by her past" analogy.

Seven of Nine, like many of the cast in the finale, deserved more of a role than she received. I could have even lived with her dying to help Voy on its way, but I highly doubt a Seven centered finale would have given any more to do for the rest of the cast than the Janeway centered finale. At least with the sacrifice of the Admiral, we got our "tragedy" and got to keep our Janeway (and our Seven) at the same time.

Maybe Braga should concentrate on how he would have redone the Enterprise finale, so it had more to do with Enterprise and last to do with TNG. :confused:

kes7 August 24 2010 01:29 AM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
As someone with personal experience in this area, the idea of a woman so unable to get over her victimization that she is "damaged" and must die for it is seriously one of the most offensive things I've ever heard. Bad, bad analogy, Braga. You deserve whatever shit you get for making it.

Do you have a link for this? I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just kind of ... needing to see it with my own eyes? Because seriously -- who says something like that? :wtf:

ETA: Never mind. I see it in the sidebar there. W ... T... F. Seriously. It takes a lot to offend me, and that comment did. Beyond the bad rape analogy, the idea that Seven's past DOOMED her is so antithetical to Trek's optimism in general that I kind of wonder how he ever got hired. Wow.

exodus August 24 2010 01:49 AM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Quote:

kes7 wrote: (Post 4337868)
As someone with personal experience in this area, the idea of a woman so unable to get over her victimization that she is "damaged" and must die for it is seriously one of the most offensive things I've ever heard. Bad, bad analogy, Braga. You deserve whatever shit you get for making it.

Do you have a link for this? I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm just kind of ... needing to see it with my own eyes? Because seriously -- who says something like that? :wtf:

ETA: Never mind. I see it in the sidebar there. W ... T... F. Seriously. It takes a lot to offend me, and that comment did. Beyond the bad rape analogy, the idea that Seven's past DOOMED her is so antithetical to Trek's optimism in general that I kind of wonder how he ever got hired. Wow.

I don't think he means it in the way you're taking it.
I don't think he means because she damaged that she must die. I see it as in the confusion of her life, her scarifice like Data would give her life meaning. Too give your life for those you love is one of the most human unselfish things you can do, so where as she was confused by never being fully Borg or human, her death gives us an answer. She died doing a human thing and that will have more impact on the crew & the audience than anything she's ever done.

However, I still don't think Braga gets that the problem with "Endgame" isn't the story per say but rather the conclusion too the story in general. Seven's death is still nothing if we don't know what happens to everyone after.

kes7 August 24 2010 01:55 AM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Braga's words, unedited:

Quote:

Seven Of Nine learns, as she begins to explore her human emotions, that she can’t experience them. There’s a Borg chip inside her that will kill her if she tries to do so. First of all, that’s kind of an interesting ‘rape victim’ analogy or whatever you want to call it, about a damaged woman who can’t get past what happened to her, but I also always saw it as a crucial episode that would set up the finale.
“This was a woman who knew she was neither here nor there. She couldn’t go back to the Borg, nor would she want to, but she could never be fully human, so she was doomed. And I wanted to have her sacrifice herself to get her shipmates home.
I don't see anything there about "dying doing a human thing" and any idea of redemption ... just doom and gloom and "you can't go home again."

exodus August 24 2010 01:58 AM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Quote:

kes7 wrote: (Post 4337917)
Braga's words, unedited:

Quote:

Seven Of Nine learns, as she begins to explore her human emotions, that she can’t experience them. There’s a Borg chip inside her that will kill her if she tries to do so. First of all, that’s kind of an interesting ‘rape victim’ analogy or whatever you want to call it, about a damaged woman who can’t get past what happened to her, but I also always saw it as a crucial episode that would set up the finale.
“This was a woman who knew she was neither here nor there. She couldn’t go back to the Borg, nor would she want to, but she could never be fully human, so she was doomed. And I wanted to have her sacrifice herself to get her shipmates home.
I don't see anything there about "dying doing a human thing" and any idea of redemption ... just doom and gloom and "you can't go home again."

Sorry, I guess reading between the lines, I do because it's almost the same way/reason Data died. Scarificing ones self for the well being of others is human.

Guy Gardener August 24 2010 02:05 AM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Wesley Crusher had the best line in the Guild... "Are you skull fucking me? Oh my god! You're skull fucking me!"

The Doctor was left alone with her severed head for quite some time in Timeless but it didn't seem he considered expressing his love then, now that she wasn't in a position to reject him.

I'm not sure why they bothered with the Admirals disease when the infinite regress thingy, and the disease they gave icheb or what they did to Hugh would have sufficed just as well without causing the demise of whosoever was selected to be the trojan horse to walk this deadly weapon in through the front gates.

Kill Seven.

Go ahead.

See if I care.

It wouldn't have changed much, except that Admiral Janeway would have got a kicking from the Indian. "Whoop de doo! you killed my girlfriend so I wouldn't lose my wife? Are you defective! A moron!? An idiot!? Fuck it, I'm going back to stop you interfering because you made a shitty shitty mess of every thing!"

Then he punches a woman in her mid 70s and steals her time machine.

Has any one considered that Admiral Janeway came back moments after Chell was given free range in the mess because Chell was given free range of the mess?

JanewayRulz! August 24 2010 11:58 AM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Plasma leek soup, anyone?

JarodRussell August 24 2010 12:20 PM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
It's always funny when writers think that a character that is trapped between two worlds has failed and needs to die because apparently the only purpose of that character would be to sacrifice himself.

That people simply learn to live with what and who they are often doesn't get their attention. ;)

Anwar August 24 2010 01:13 PM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
It's not very interesting dramatically to just have them shrug and go "Oh well", and then carry on like nothing's different.

JarodRussell August 24 2010 01:34 PM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Quote:

Anwar wrote: (Post 4338755)
It's not very interesting dramatically to just have them shrug and go "Oh well", and then carry on like nothing's different.

Funny, because I don't find lame death scenes interesting. ;)

DevilEyes August 24 2010 01:41 PM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
If Braga got the chance to do Endgame again, he would do better to change the whole stupid and highly problematic storyline of Janeway coming back to change the past... And to think of some better and dramatically more satisfying, less Deus-ex-machina-like way to bring Voyager home.

As for Seven dying... Meh, the whole 'redemption through sacrificing yourself for your crew' has become such a cliche, particularly in Trek. Why can't someone achieve redemption and go on living? Seven didn't need to die... they just shouldn't have hooked her up with Chakotay - that was stupid.

Janeway dying for her crew would be just as cliche and unnecessary, but the older Janeway from the future dying was even worse because it was such a cop-out. We have the captain die AND stay alive (because there's two of them!). Great way to have your cake and eat it. :rolleyes:

I'd also like to see Voyager crew after they got back home... I'd like to see how they would cope with it, how would the Maquis be treated, how would Seven and Icheb adjust, would some members of the crew find it difficult to adjust after so much time spent in the Delta Quadrant, trying to get back home. You've been trying to get back home for so long, what do you do now you are home.

Guy Gardener August 24 2010 02:10 PM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
I got two words for you...

Vaughn Armstrong.

Meet the Clumps beat Star Trek First Contact for best special effects at the Academy Awards.

You don't see the connection?

Roles portrayed by Vaughn Armstrong...

Telek Rimor from Eye of the needle.
Alpha Hirogen from Flesh and Blood
Vidiian Captain from Fury
2 of fricking 9 from Survival instinct

And not to forget SESKAL from a couple episodes of Deep Space Nine!

Also...

Gul Dunar from DS9 Past Prologue
Korris from TNG's Heart of Glory

And possibly for the cherry on top: the great grand son of Maxwell Forrest, if not Forrest himself in old man make up, pushing 300 as he welcomes Kathy home, as a teaser/spoiler for Enterprise if they had him cast for that yet or even if they hadn't because they should have.

What if in Voyagers finale, Vaughn played all of these characters AGAIN, SIMULTANEOUSLY during the course of some Endgame story AND Korath (as well?), who it seems was a character from the Las Vegas Experience which is just shameless cross advertising and not as pointless a waste of time as I thought after all.

Y'know... Like how Eddie played half a dozen rolls in meet the Clumps?

Wouldn't that have been grand?

One guy in lots of roles and outrageous make up TRUMPS Borg.

A fact proven at the Oscars.

But honestly if they were going to recast their Borg Queen, then their first call should have been to Jennifer Lien.

Anwar August 24 2010 02:58 PM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Quote:

DevilEyes wrote: (Post 4338796)

I'd also like to see Voyager crew after they got back home... I'd like to see how they would cope with it, how would the Maquis be treated, how would Seven and Icheb adjust, would some members of the crew find it difficult to adjust after so much time spent in the Delta Quadrant, trying to get back home. You've been trying to get back home for so long, what do you do now you are home.

After "Lord of the Rings", I'm happy they didn't go for something like that and just ended the damn thing in one spot. They were in contact with the Alpha Quadrant earlier on in the show so they already were aware of the changes and stuff.

JarodRussell August 24 2010 04:52 PM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Quote:

Anwar wrote: (Post 4338954)
After "Lord of the Rings", I'm happy they didn't go for something like that and just ended the damn thing in one spot.

Well, in the book, they did. ;)

kimc August 24 2010 05:25 PM

Re: If Braga had a chance to do "Endgame" over again...
 
Quote:

DevilEyes wrote: (Post 4338796)
As for Seven dying... Meh, the whole 'redemption through sacrificing yourself for your crew' has become such a cliche, particularly in Trek. Why can't someone achieve redemption and go on living? Seven didn't need to die... they just shouldn't have hooked her up with Chakotay - that was stupid.

I agree. Get rid of that plus come up with a story that didn't involve either the borg or time travel and you could have had a decent finale.


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