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-   -   Guinan in "Q Who" (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=126057)

SchwEnt July 28 2010 06:35 PM

Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Yes, it was just on television so now I'm talking about it.
And yes, it is a great eps, I love it.

But what's the deal with Guinan?

Q flings the Enterprise into Borg space, and she knows it. And she knows about the Borg.
When Picard first asks her for help, she warns that they should start heading back now. She's right, and she did warn them. But pretty damn vague.

Then a Borg cube shows up. Picard asks Guinan to monitor and says he "needs her input"
All she offers is "They're called the Borg. Protect yourself or they'll destroy you."

Another sound warning from Guinan, but she should offer more substantial info.

Picard doesn't heed the warnings, and now a Borg intruder messes around in engineering.

Then there's a conference with Guinan.
Okay NOW she starts talking about how they come in swarms, in force. You cannot reason with them, you cannot stop them. Shoulda said so before Guinan!

Next comes the Borg attack that kills 18 people.

A *second* conference with Guinan and Picard asks again "how much can you tell us, anything would help"
And NOW Guinan talks about how the Borg are organic and artificial life that's been developing for thousands of centuries, yadda yadda yadda.

And my point is...

Picard usually heeds Guinan's advice and warnings.
This time, not so much. In fact, the Borg are the ones who really convince him to get the hell outta there.

And what's with Guinan? Picards asks--several times--for her advice, her input, her knowledge.

Guinan knows a Borg cube, knows the race, knows what they do, how they operate, knows they can outrun and outgun Starfleet. Yet she doesn't say anything until AFTER the sh1t hits the fan?

Waaaayyyy back in Ten Forward, Guinan should have said right then and there "Oh yes, this is Borg space. The Borg are a race of organic and artificial life. There are thousands of them. They are relentless. You cannot defeat them, you cannot reason with them. They will destroy you. Avoid them at all costs."

Because really... she said all that anyway. Only not up front. Why wouldn't she??

Aside from dramatic purposes that would have cut the eps short, if Guinan knew about the Borg, why would she NOT have revealed it all as soon as Picard asked at the beginning?

Yuckleberry Finn July 28 2010 06:54 PM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
^I'd think it's hard for her to talk about them. They destroyed her world. It's possible she lost a lot of family and friends to the Borg. We see this kind of thing in our society.

Alrik July 28 2010 07:07 PM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Perhaps Guinan knew what Q inadvertently provided and that Picard realized at the end, that Star Fleet really did need a 'kick in our complacency' if they were to adapt and handle the challenges that were to come as they continued to reach farther into deep space. Therefore she had to allow Picard & Co to figure out just how bad bad was on their own, so that they would truly understand the threat that now would exist and would be able to relay the urgency to Star Fleet.

22 Stars July 28 2010 07:25 PM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
What I never understoood is that clunky scene when she is looking out the window in Ten Forward, then has to go into her office, to look at the monitor that shows her the same view of the Borg Cube. I don't understand what more info she got on the computer screen than looking out the window?

Maybe they were going to add some data to the graphic, about size, shape etc but didn't?

Solarbaby July 28 2010 07:42 PM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Well this was from the people who wrote Troi's character. So Guninan could be on the ball shit hot fountain of knowledge one week and really inconsistent the next. At least she didn't have her cleavage out

Danny99 July 28 2010 10:09 PM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
The weirdest thing about this episode was when Guinan and Q were about to duke it out and Guinan's pose looks like she's going to claw Q's eyes out.

Yuckleberry Finn July 28 2010 11:18 PM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
That, and Q's comments about her. I wonder if some of the writers had some ideas for Guinan that never panned out.

DS9 Gal AZ July 29 2010 12:11 AM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Quote:

Finn wrote: (Post 4277348)
That, and Q's comments about her. I wonder if some of the writers had some ideas for Guinan that never panned out.

Yeah, I kind of think that's what happened. Q says something about her like, "this is a dangerous creature, you have no idea." And the fact that it looks she's going to fight Q in that episode seems to imply that their equals on some level... is Guinan a Q-like being, is that wht they're saying? And yet, when we learn more about the El-Aurians (I think that's what she is), all we get is that they're "a race of listeners," very persuasive people who put other at ease and can get them to do stuff. Interesting, but not exactly Q-level power. I think they hinted at some things about Guinan that never came to fruition.

CorporalClegg July 29 2010 12:24 AM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
^
I think it's more basic than that.

Like Picard said, the Q are really just glorified flimflam men. Because of their longevity and heighten senses, El-Aurians have the ability to see through the Q's tricks (or "behind the curtain," if you will) and thus the Q's power has little or no effect on them. The Q then feel threatened by this.

Holdfast July 29 2010 12:37 AM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Quote:

CorporalClegg wrote: (Post 4277492)
Like Picard said, the Q are really just glorified flimflam men. Because of their longevity and heighten senses, El-Aurians have the ability to see through the Q's tricks (or "behind the curtain," if you will) and thus the Q's power has little or no effect on them. The Q then feel threatened by this.

Are you suggesting that the Q powers we've seen only actually work on (or even exist for) weak-willed individuals, like some kind of massive Jedi Mind Trick?

That's a bit out there, but a pretty cool concept in a Kantian or even existentialist sort of way.

CorporalClegg July 29 2010 12:56 AM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Well it does seem congruent with the Q's fear of human evolution--as if they expect humans to achieve some kind of level of enlightenment to where they too can see Oz for who he really is.

Mojochi July 29 2010 03:15 AM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Quote:

SchwEnt wrote: (Post 4276558)
Waaaayyyy back in Ten Forward, Guinan should have said right then and there "Oh yes, this is Borg space. The Borg are a race of organic and artificial life. There are thousands of them. They are relentless. You cannot defeat them, you cannot reason with them. They will destroy you. Avoid them at all costs."

Because really... she said all that anyway. Only not up front. Why wouldn't she??

Aside from dramatic purposes that would have cut the eps short, if Guinan knew about the Borg, why would she NOT have revealed it all as soon as Picard asked at the beginning?

Perhaps piss poor relevant strategic communication was the reason the El-Aurians got their asses wiped out by the Borg in the first place :lol:

FormerLurker July 29 2010 06:46 AM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Guinan's behavior in this episode is what made me think she actually is not an El-Aurian, but was merely traveling with them at a low point in her life, and due to being among them, the Federation think she is one.

Pauln6 July 29 2010 10:02 AM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Yeah, they cocked up Guinan's mystique by making El-Aurans simple humanoids when using Soren as a villain. While Adromeda was often quite weak, they did quite a good job of drip-feeding clues that Trance Gemini was a lot more than she appeared. Her origin spiralled into ludicrousness later on but an actual plot arc about Guinan and her people's abilities would have been preferable - maybe like Gandalf - a hugely powerful creature instructed to observe who uses a tiny fraction of his power to guide the lesser races.

Praxius July 29 2010 01:13 PM

Re: Guinan in "Q Who"
 
Quote:

SchwEnt wrote: (Post 4276558)
Yes, it was just on television so now I'm talking about it.
And yes, it is a great eps, I love it.

But what's the deal with Guinan?

Q flings the Enterprise into Borg space, and she knows it. And she knows about the Borg.
When Picard first asks her for help, she warns that they should start heading back now. She's right, and she did warn them. But pretty damn vague.

Then a Borg cube shows up. Picard asks Guinan to monitor and says he "needs her input"
All she offers is "They're called the Borg. Protect yourself or they'll destroy you."

Another sound warning from Guinan, but she should offer more substantial info.

Picard doesn't heed the warnings, and now a Borg intruder messes around in engineering.

Then there's a conference with Guinan.
Okay NOW she starts talking about how they come in swarms, in force. You cannot reason with them, you cannot stop them. Shoulda said so before Guinan!

Next comes the Borg attack that kills 18 people.

A *second* conference with Guinan and Picard asks again "how much can you tell us, anything would help"
And NOW Guinan talks about how the Borg are organic and artificial life that's been developing for thousands of centuries, yadda yadda yadda.

And my point is...

Picard usually heeds Guinan's advice and warnings.
This time, not so much. In fact, the Borg are the ones who really convince him to get the hell outta there.

And what's with Guinan? Picards asks--several times--for her advice, her input, her knowledge.

Guinan knows a Borg cube, knows the race, knows what they do, how they operate, knows they can outrun and outgun Starfleet. Yet she doesn't say anything until AFTER the sh1t hits the fan?

Waaaayyyy back in Ten Forward, Guinan should have said right then and there "Oh yes, this is Borg space. The Borg are a race of organic and artificial life. There are thousands of them. They are relentless. You cannot defeat them, you cannot reason with them. They will destroy you. Avoid them at all costs."

Because really... she said all that anyway. Only not up front. Why wouldn't she??

Aside from dramatic purposes that would have cut the eps short, if Guinan knew about the Borg, why would she NOT have revealed it all as soon as Picard asked at the beginning?

Probably because since the borg can outrun and out gun them, and will eventually destroy them all out there alone away from the rest of the federation, she probably figured they were all dead anyways and giving them warnings and to start high-tailing it back to federation space would have been like insult to injury..... like a deer locked inside some rich guy's safari hunting grounds..... you can run and you can try and hide, but you can't escape and eventually the rich guy in his jeep with gun you down with his high powered scoped rifle.

After having her own species and her own home destroyed and scattered across the galaxy, she at the time was probably not in the best of spirits seeing them again right in front of her while she's stuck in that "primitive tin can" called Enterprise D. (Primitive compared to what's needed to defend against the borg that is)

Also, Picard seemed to want to use this opportunity to explore and study the Borg like they were some sort of bug in a dish, so she insisted to Picard, quite adequately imo, to not be stupid and Gtf out of there before something happens because she knew they weren't ready for the borg yet and it was the borg who were going to be studying them like the bug.

But Picard decided to show how "s.m.r.t." we humans were and didn't listen.... which led to her explaining in further detail why they should listen to her and gtf out of there.


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