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-   -   Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=123184)

King Daniel Into Darkness June 11 2010 04:22 PM

Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Kirk was "one of the guys" in STXI, on equal footing with Sulu, Uhura, McCoy and the rest. As a stowaway cadet, he didn't command anyone.

As much as I enjoyed the film, and Chris Pine's performance as Kirk, I'm not sure he'll be a convincing authority figure in Star Trek XII.

Can anyone picture him doing captain's logs? Ordering his crew around? Chewing out disobedient whelps? He spends STXI "sticking it to the man"/playing by his own rules/whatever, but how does that help him when he's "the man"?

BTW, This thread isn't about Kirk's uber-promotion. That's been discussed to death already. This is about the XI-version of character. OCD STXI trolls please stay away.

Lord Garth June 11 2010 04:40 PM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
I also have a hard time seeing Pine's Kirk, the way he was in ST XI, as The Man. If they have him as basically The Man, straight from the get-go in ST XII the character will be unrecognizable from the previous film. They need to show the progression instead of have it all happen off-screen.

I think what they'll do is show how he mentally grows into the role now that he has it, and gets from Point A to Point B. Kirk's maturation would be a natural arc for the character to follow.

Sabataage June 12 2010 05:29 AM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
In the behind-the-scenes-doc the writers and producers discussed the layers they were looking for in Kirk. He needed to be an iconoclast and a badass, as well as have "command authority". Everyone who read for the part, they claimed, could only do one or the other, not both-- except for Pine. The only hint we see of that side of him is in his exchange with Uhura after sitting in captain's chair and later when he tells Sulu to fire on the ship even the they're still on board. So, that side of him has been seen already, its just very fleeting. I could see him mourning the loss of a redshirt in the next movie.

T'Girl June 12 2010 06:33 AM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Quote:

Sabataage wrote: (Post 4159115)
I could see him mourning the loss of a redshirt in the next movie.

Especially if the dead redshirt's father helped Kirk to get into the academy. If Star Trek Twelve takes place three years after Star Trek Eleven then it might be more believable that Kirk has grown into his Captain's chair. Perhaps they can begin the movie with a fast one minute montage of Kirk's previous few years to show the audience that Kirk is "the man" and not still "the boy."

:)

kkozoriz1 June 12 2010 04:02 PM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Quote:

Lord Garth wrote: (Post 4157211)
I also have a hard time seeing Pine's Kirk, the way he was in ST XI, as The Man. If they have him as basically The Man, straight from the get-go in ST XII the character will be unrecognizable from the previous film. They need to show the progression instead of have it all happen off-screen.

I think what they'll do is show how he mentally grows into the role now that he has it, and gets from Point A to Point B. Kirk's maturation would be a natural arc for the character to follow.

Agree totally with this. It's something that should have been shown, at least in the early stages in the last movie. NuKirk is basically the same at the end of the movie as he was at the Academy. If he's shown as "The Man" and comes down on a junior officer for acting like he did he'll come across as a hypocrite. SHOW us how he becomes the man he will be. Don't just hump forward and show that he has.

Temis the Vorta June 12 2010 05:49 PM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
The elements that Kirk is missing (and may just not have been in evidence in Trek XI rather than truly nonexistent), that will allow him to become an authority figure, are:

1. A stronger sense that he really cares about the people under his command. Shatner's Kirk sometimes came off almost as a den mother, which is a good aspect for a leader to have. You gotta show your people that you are loyal to them before they'll be loyal to you.

2. Dedication to the Federation as an ideological principle. Starfleet exists because of this principle and presumably that's why people are willing to die for it. Kirk has to be presented as someone who is in space for more than just the fun of it, or he'll come off as too shallow to be a real leader.

3. Willingness to roll the hard six. A good leader needs the ability to make decisions even when the options are appalling and the risks are extreme. Kirk needs a bit of that ole Bill Adama quality.

Kirk may already have #1 and #2. #3 is something that he'll develop only as he's confronted with the tough choices. And once again, it's frustrating that this is just a movie series and not TV. For Kirk or any of the characters to be properly developed, they need hours and hours of screen time.

Oh one last thing: dumb luck played a large role in Pine's Kirk's quick promotion. It would be nice to see him whomped upside the head at the beginning of the next movie, because in many ways he's not ready for command, signalling that dumb luck can turn on a dime.
Quote:

He needed to be an iconoclast and a badass, as well as have "command authority". Everyone who read for the part, they claimed, could only do one or the other, not both-- except for Pine.
Interesting. I can see why that would be a hard combo to find in any single actor.

kkozoriz1 June 12 2010 09:00 PM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Quote:

Temis the Vorta wrote: (Post 4159986)
The elements that Kirk is missing (and may just not have been in evidence in Trek XI rather than truly nonexistent), that will allow him to become an authority figure, are:

1. A stronger sense that he really cares about the people under his command. Shatner's Kirk sometimes came off almost as a den mother, which is a good aspect for a leader to have. You gotta show your people that you are loyal to them before they'll be loyal to you.

2. Dedication to the Federation as an ideological principle. Starfleet exists because of this principle and presumably that's why people are willing to die for it. Kirk has to be presented as someone who is in space for more than just the fun of it, or he'll come off as too shallow to be a real leader.

3. Willingness to roll the hard six. A good leader needs the ability to make decisions even when the options are appalling and the risks are extreme. Kirk needs a bit of that ole Bill Adama quality.

Kirk may already have #1 and #2. #3 is something that he'll develop only as he's confronted with the tough choices. And once again, it's frustrating that this is just a movie series and not TV. For Kirk or any of the characters to be properly developed, they need hours and hours of screen time.

Oh one last thing: dumb luck played a large role in Pine's Kirk's quick promotion. It would be nice to see him whomped upside the head at the beginning of the next movie, because in many ways he's not ready for command, signalling that dumb luck can turn on a dime.
Quote:

He needed to be an iconoclast and a badass, as well as have "command authority". Everyone who read for the part, they claimed, could only do one or the other, not both-- except for Pine.
Interesting. I can see why that would be a hard combo to find in any single actor.

Agreed! I can see Chris Pine being Kirk. I have no problem with the actor. It's how he was written that was the problem I had with him. As you say, he lucked into command. I know that people say you had to show him in the center seat at the end of the movie. What if he had been acting Captain but, at the end Pike was back and Kirk was First Officer? Spock could give a nice speech saying that Kirk is more suited to command and he'd stay on as Science Officer. Pike could be there to ride him, making him live up to his potential. The cast is signed for two sequels. Make it an arc. Show us why the crew is so dedicated to him.

Star Wars ended with the Empire still around and Vader on the loose. Just because the movie ends doesn't mean that the story is over.

Agenda June 12 2010 11:18 PM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Well, that makes an interesting plot point for the next movie, doesn't it? How does he become the Kirk we know and love?

JarodRussell June 12 2010 11:29 PM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Kirk would have actually needed a natural "talent" of charisma. Something in his personality that makes people want to follow his decisions. That's one important aspect about born leaders.

Pine Kirk didn't have that, in my opinion. He was an arrogant ass that nobody liked.

kkozoriz1 June 13 2010 12:09 AM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Pine has it, he just wasn't given the chance to use it. Which is too bad since most of the others did quite well as the characters we know. Kirk & Scotty were the major exceptions. Chekov was more annoying than he should have been but he was a minor character.

Jeyl June 13 2010 01:48 AM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
First things first. The opening monologue.

"Space, the final frontier."

I cannot and will not accept that monologue coming from NuKirk. Ever. Nowhere in this film did he show any ambition or intuition to be someone who actually wants to go out into the unknown and reflect what the monologue stands for. He went into this on a dare because he had nothing better to do, and his first goal was to finish the academy in three years. Why? Why does he want to rush through things? That's just counterproductive.

As for the topic at hand? Please. His authority in the Kobayashi Maru is the single most disconnecting moment I've ever had with a character. The whole premise of this test seems to rely on the notion that everyone involved, both students and trainers are the stupidest group of individuals who wouldn't know good commanding skills from a cockroaches attention span. Kirk is supposed to be leading his crew into a what seems like a losing situation, and he's just dashing their well put concerns away without even filling them in on what's going on. To make matters worse, when the simulation is over, he gloats around acting like it was nothing, and doesn't tell anyone how he did it or why. How are those good qualities in a Captain, let alone the hero of the story? Why would you leave your crew in the dark about a potentially fatal scenario just to satisfy your own selfish ego? If he was trying to make a point, why did he keep it to himself until he was confronted with it?

I can't believe people love his character. I can't find a single thing to like about him.

Jeyl June 13 2010 02:06 AM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Quote:

Temis the Vorta wrote: (Post 4159986)
Quote:

He needed to be an iconoclast and a badass, as well as have "command authority". Everyone who read for the part, they claimed, could only do one or the other, not both-- except for Pine.
Interesting. I can see why that would be a hard combo to find in any single actor.

That's because being an iconoclast (One who shoos off rules and regulations) and a bada** (doing things your own way and trying to look awesome while doing it) are selfish aspects to a character. Those two things should not go together at all. When I think of a leader with command authority, I don't seem him as a person who:

- Attacks cherished beliefs, traditional institutions, etc., as being based on error or superstition.
- Is difficult to deal with; mean-tempered; touchy.
- Is rude or disrespectful; contemptuously impertinent; insulting.

teacake June 13 2010 05:25 AM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
The way they did Pine's hair in the final scene pulled him out of adolescence I think. I'm hoping they will beef him up a bit and give him some weight in STXII.

King Daniel Into Darkness June 13 2010 03:06 PM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
^Some stubble might help: I thought Kirk looked younger than ever in the final scene.

I also didn't like the yellow shirt, but Trek often gives captains custom outfits. I think a Voyager-style inverted colours uniform for Kirk (i.e. black with yellow undershirt) would look cool.

And Jeyl: They recorded a Pine "Space, the Final Frontier..." speech when they were deciding who should say it at the end. You can hear Pine's on the into to the gag reel on the DVD and on Youtube. I wasn't convinced by it.

JarodRussell June 13 2010 03:19 PM

Re: Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?
 
Quote:

Jeyl wrote: (Post 4161036)
First things first. The opening monologue.

"Space, the final frontier."

I cannot and will not accept that monologue coming from NuKirk. Ever. Nowhere in this film did he show any ambition or intuition to be someone who actually wants to go out into the unknown and reflect what the monologue stands for. He went into this on a dare because he had nothing better to do, and his first goal was to finish the academy in three years. Why? Why does he want to rush through things? That's just counterproductive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoRHoxN4KKo

vs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdjL8WXjlGI

I think you're absolutely right.


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