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James Wright April 23 2010 04:57 AM

Shuttlecraft
 
Can someone tell me which class of Federation starship was the first to carry shuttlecraft capable of warp speed?
I know that the E-D had shuttlecraft that could move at warp speeds.
Were the shuttlcraft on the E-A still impulse capable as they were in TOS?
I've checked at Memory Alpha, nothing useful there.

Thank you,
James

Albertese April 23 2010 05:09 AM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
I don't recall any specific statement that the shuttle's on TOS were impulse-only. In fact, they are shown on screen as performing missions which would implicitly require the use of a warp drive or some sort of FTL system at any rate. I haven't actually watched enough of Enterprise to know for sure, but i bet Archer's shuttlepods were only impulse. But we can be certain that the shuttles from TOS, TAS and all the movies were warp-capable. Exception: The wedge-shaped vulcan shuttle needed an attached warp sled, and was likely not warp-capable on it's own. Prior to ST5:TFF, it was assumed that the ship carried similar craft, but since then, I think e can assume that the refit always carried them too. And they look to have warp engines.

--Alex

Timo April 23 2010 09:36 AM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
The new movie shows a shuttle design that is shaped quite like the TOS one, with minor detail variations only. This shuttle type was used for evacuating a dying starship's crew from what appeared to be hostile territory - so the odds are that this shuttle was warp-capable as well. At least the type had prominent warp nacelles...

The scene was dated at 2233, and is our earliest indication of warp-capable Starfleet shuttles, although the movie offers no solid proof for that capacity. TOS proof for the warp abilities of Kirk's shuttlecraft is more substantial.

Timo Saloniemi

King Daniel Into Darkness April 23 2010 04:32 PM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
The TOS shuttles clearly had warp nacelles. I fail to see how people could ever pretend otherwise.

The Kelvin shuttles (which also had obvious nacelles) *had* to have warp drive, otherwise Nerada would have had plenty of time to recover from George's ramming and kill everyone.

Some of the nuEnterprise shuttles had warp nacelles but not all (also: watch as Kirk and McCoy board a shuttle of a different design to that they land in!).

I was mildly suprised to see a 2258 shuttle with a transporter - but those shuttles closer in size to a runabout and the NX01 transporter didn't take up more than a niche in a corridor. For all we know there was a transporter in that little room at the rear of the TOS shuttles.

James Wright April 23 2010 08:35 PM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Gentlemen(snicker), you're forgetting about the Romulan Bird of Prey seen in TOS episode "Balance of Terror", it had nacelles but was only capable of moving at impulse.
In TOS episode "The Menagerie" if the shuttlecraft had been warp capable why didn't it over take the Enterprise? As it is the shuttle used so much fuel trying to catch the Enterprise it didn't have enough fuel to return to Starbase 11.
Was there any mention of a shuttle's speed in either of these episodes "The Menagerie" or " The Galileo Seven"?
Thank you,

James

blssdwlf April 23 2010 09:55 PM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Keep in mind that for TOS that impulse engines have been implied to be capable of FTL. That's how the SS Valiant got out to edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and how also the Enterprise got around when her warp drive was burnt out or damaged...

Regarding the Romulans, we don't know what makes their ships go in TOS. The nacelles might've been just decorative or fuel pods. Or they could've been massive impulse engines. :)

As for the shuttlecraft overtaking the Enterprise, why would it or how could it? I seriously doubt any warp shuttlecraft would be able to catch an undamaged Enterprise at warp. :)

Lieut. Arex April 24 2010 01:22 AM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Quote:

James Wright wrote: (Post 4020299)
Gentlemen(snicker), you're forgetting about the Romulan Bird of Prey seen in TOS episode "Balance of Terror", it had nacelles but was only capable of moving at impulse.

Really? Because it covers distances in time frames only possible if it is capable of FTL flight (@ Wf2). Scotty's line concerns "power", not the drive. A steamship and an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer might use propellers for drive, but a gas turbine engine has a lot more get-up-and-go than a steam boiler. The difference between a M/AM reactor and an impulse fusion reactor would be even greater.

Albertese April 24 2010 02:56 AM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Quote:

James Wright wrote: (Post 4020299)
Gentlemen(snicker), you're forgetting about the Romulan Bird of Prey seen in TOS episode "Balance of Terror", it had nacelles but was only capable of moving at impulse.
In TOS episode "The Menagerie" if the shuttlecraft had been warp capable why didn't it over take the Enterprise? As it is the shuttle used so much fuel trying to catch the Enterprise it didn't have enough fuel to return to Starbase 11.
Was there any mention of a shuttle's speed in either of these episodes "The Menagerie" or " The Galileo Seven"?
Thank you,

James

Actually I don't recall there being any reference to speed in either episode. But, we do know that the Enterprise was traveling at warp speed while being pursed by the shuttle. Sure, it wasn't caught by the shuttle, but the shuttle did keep up for a good long while. Gots to have a warp drive to keep up with a warp driven starship. "Galileo Seven" doesn't say otherwise (as far as I can remember right now) but it's implied that the shuttle was very far away from the Enterprise when it got lost. Let's not forget "metamorphosis" where Kirk, Spock and McCoy are flying Commissioner Hedford to some far away place in a shuttlecraft. Obviously they were warp-speed distances away from the mothership.

--Alex

Timo April 24 2010 03:22 PM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Quote:

Gentlemen(snicker), you're forgetting about the Romulan Bird of Prey seen in TOS episode "Balance of Terror", it had nacelles but was only capable of moving at impulse.
Whatever the Romulan propulsive system's true nature, the episode showed that if Kirk chased at warp three, he didn't overshoot the Romulans. So once again, the presence of things that look like warp nacelles is associated with the ability to travel at warp speeds (warp three at least).

Quote:

In TOS episode "The Menagerie" if the shuttlecraft had been warp capable why didn't it over take the Enterprise?
Because the Enterprise moved even faster. And in this episode, it is established that the Enterprise had been ordered to move at warp - so the shuttle probably was capable of warp one at least, or else Kirk wouldn't have chosen to give chase at all.

Quote:

Was there any mention of a shuttle's speed in either of these episodes "The Menagerie" or " The Galileo Seven"?
As said, "The Menagerie" has Spock ordering the ship to warp out of orbit:

Quote:

Starbase ATC: "Starship Enterprise, Commodore. It's warping out of orbit. Refuses to acknowledge our signal."
No speeds are given in the other episode, but the shuttle is lost in a region containing four star systems, and Kirk assumes the shuttle could be in any one of them. Even if the systems are very close to each other, the shuttle seems to be capable of low warp speeds or else it couldn't reach more than one system.

"Metamorphosis" also fails to give speed references. There the shuttle might be traveling between star systems, or then merely departing one star system through a hazardous asteroid belt in order to rendezvous with the ship that would complete the journey to the destination system.

In other TOS episodes, shuttles only seem to travel from orbit to surface and vice versa.

Timo Saloniemi

King Daniel Into Darkness April 24 2010 04:36 PM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but the TOS shuttle has warp nacelles. They look EXACTLY THE SAME as the ones on the Enterprise.
Who honestly believes that starfleet would build impulse engines into the exact shape of a warp nacelle? With every detail?

How is there any dispute over this? :wtf:

Up next: How the transporter on the Enterprise-D was actually a food replicator made in the shape of a transporter.

King Daniel Into Darkness April 24 2010 04:36 PM

Re: So what are you reading now? (Part 3)
 
I actually was a stuck record :lol:

Double post begone!

Colonel Midnight April 24 2010 08:45 PM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
^ Was that double post intentional? *laugh* ;)

Just kidding!

Cheers,
-CM-

King Daniel Into Darkness April 24 2010 09:02 PM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Nope. Fixed :)

Gagarin April 24 2010 09:56 PM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Quote:

blssdwlf wrote: (Post 4020502)
Keep in mind that for TOS that impulse engines have been implied to be capable of FTL. That's how the SS Valiant got out to edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and how also the Enterprise got around when her warp drive was burnt out or damaged... :)

Wait, what? SS Valiant had warp drive. At least, they never said that it didn't have warp drive.

Also, there's room for the Enterprise to have remained at warp speeds after contact with the barrier and then having the crystals fail. After all, there's a fade to black and commercial break before the Captains Log...

blssdwlf April 25 2010 03:24 AM

Re: Shuttlecraft
 
Quote:

Gagarin wrote: (Post 4023010)
Quote:

blssdwlf wrote: (Post 4020502)
Keep in mind that for TOS that impulse engines have been implied to be capable of FTL. That's how the SS Valiant got out to edge of the galaxy in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and how also the Enterprise got around when her warp drive was burnt out or damaged... :)

Wait, what? SS Valiant had warp drive. At least, they never said that it didn't have warp drive.

True, the dialogue only confirmed that the SS Valiant had Impulse drive but they were the engines that battled the magnetic space storm. Also, it was far enough back in time (200 years) that it may or may not have had warp drive since Zefram Cochrane would've been about 37 years old so it could go either way whether warp drive had been invented yet when the Valiant made it to the galactic barrier.

Quote:

KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago.
...
SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here...
Quote:

Gagarin wrote: (Post 4023010)
Also, there's room for the Enterprise to have remained at warp speeds after contact with the barrier and then having the crystals fail. After all, there's a fade to black and commercial break before the Captains Log...

The Enterprise could have been at warp for a bit after turning back but it didn't last long since Spock announced that they had burnt out the main engines prior to the Captain's Log entry.


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