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-   -   Did First Contact change the timeline? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=118848)

Tiberius April 13 2010 09:30 AM

Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
I've seen some people here say that First Contact changed the timeline, and thus Enterprise takes place in a tdifferent timeline than TOS and TNG onwards.

But if that's the case, how can you explain that Q-Who requires the Borg to know about the federation, which they only find out about because of the transmission sent in Regeneration. How can events in an alternate timeline affect events in the "original" timeline?

Timo April 13 2010 11:11 AM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
I don't see any indication in "Q Who?" that the Borg wouldn't already know all about Earth and the Earthlings.

Nor do I see any indication in "Regeneration" that the Borg message sent towards the Delta Quadrant would have been of much significance. It probably made the Collective aware of how the mission went the first time around - but since the Borg can time travel, they could time travel until they reached the desired outcome, which indicates that the history that unfolded after the ST:FC end credits rolled is the one that the Borg desired.

Indeed, ST:FC looks like a time loop to me. In the first iteration, Zephram Cochrane is a crazy hillbilly who happens to have some fundamentally faulty ideas about warp drive, and the Borg help him invent warp at the crucial moment by bringing him help from the future. In the last iteration, Cochrane has got it almost right, and the future helpers only need to do a little bit of tinkering to create "the engine they read about in the history books". Thus, the last iteration was always part of "the timeline", whereas the earlier iterations were part of different timelines where at first the UFP didn't exist, then something like it began to exist but with really poor warp drives and tech, and finally the UFP we know began to exist and enjoyed high standard Cochrane warp engines from the very start...

Timo Saloniemi

BillJ April 13 2010 02:05 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
Quote:

Tiberius wrote: (Post 3992891)
I've seen some people here say that First Contact changed the timeline, and thus Enterprise takes place in a tdifferent timeline than TOS and TNG onwards.

But if that's the case, how can you explain that Q-Who requires the Borg to know about the federation, which they only find out about because of the transmission sent in Regeneration. How can events in an alternate timeline affect events in the "original" timeline?

Depends on which one makes you sleep better at night.

To me it is all one timeline up until Star Trek 2009. Dramatically, it is more satisfying a structure.

Brian April 13 2010 02:25 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
Didn't Picard state in "Q Who" that the Borg now know about the Federation because of the events of "Q Who"? It was never established that a transmission of any sort brought the Borg to the Alpha Quadrant, AFAIK.

When Cochrane looked at the Enterprise-E in the telescope in ST:FC, I admit I did have the thought that the saucer/nacelle configuration of all future Starfleet vessels was born then. There was nothing leading toward that design configuration up until that point. Cochrane did have a 2-nacelle design, but nothing to lead toward a saucer shape for the crew portion of a ship.

When you think about it, how could the things he and Lily saw not affect their future activities & decisions? And it's not like they were unknown bums in an alley accidentally phasering themselves. They were very influential people in what was to come.

Mr. Laser Beam April 13 2010 03:34 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
I view it as a closed loop. A predestination paradox.

King Daniel Into Darkness April 13 2010 05:07 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
Honestly, there's evidence for both theories. Enterprise twice said that the future was changed, first when a colony was destroyed in "Shockwave" and again when the Xindi attacked - yet season four was full of TOS prequel episodes. Enterprise contradicted TOS a few times (cloaking devices etc) and the NX01 wasn't on the TMP or TNG Enterprise legacy walls.

I personally stick it all in one timeline up until the Kelvin attack at the start of STXI, but I don't freak out at continuity errors (although I get a kick out of pointing them out!)

doubleohfive April 13 2010 08:18 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
^With regard to Enterprise NX-01 not being on the legacy walls, we have two reasons for that logistically.

The first is obvious: Enterprise hadn't even been conceived when those legacy walls were built for TMP and TNG.

The second would be a little more ambiguous, but one that carries at least some weight -- NX-01 may have been the first starship Enterprise, but it was NOT the first Federation starship Enterprise.

If we are to go by events shown in "These Are The Voyages...," one can likely assume that NX-01 was in the process of being decommissioned (or entirely so; we don't really get much in the way of how much time passes between Trip's death and the conference) by the time Archer gives his big Federation koom-by-ya speech.

Personally, I don't mind the idea that the signal from 'Regeneration' later influences the events of 'Q-Who?' only because of what happened in First Contact.

sbk1234 April 13 2010 08:51 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
I read in another post somewhere an idea that the pictures in TMP Recdeck could have periodically switched to different ships. Easily done with today's technology. Maybe we just didn't see it come around to the NX-01.

King Daniel Into Darkness April 13 2010 09:04 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
doubleohfive, the legacy walls included sailing ships and the NASA space shuttle (no Richard Branson VSS Enterprise either :p). No "in-universe" reason to exclude it. I liked how they mentioned in Enterprise that Archer had planets named after him - and then I saw a TNG that ended with them setting course for one! Obviously a fluke, but still cool.

doubleohfive April 13 2010 09:22 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
^
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to dictate the in-universe reason as to why NX-01 wasn't included, just theorizing.

Then again, if we're going to get REALLY technical about the legacy wall in the conference room, the depiction of the Enterprise-C is rather disproportionate to what eventually was revealed to be the Ambassador-class Enterprise-C in "Yesterday's Enterprise" (which also happens to be the episode which ends with the ship heading to Archer-4.) :lol:

ZOMFG IT'S ALL CONNECTED!!!1111

;)

Dac April 13 2010 09:54 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
Q-Who makes no reference to the Borg knowing of the Federation. Q only introduces the Borg to the federation in response to humanity's naivety to thinking they know everything and can overcome any obstacle. This is why Picard says he needs Q, because he's out of his depth.

The only prior contact with the federation was with the Hansen's as seen in Voyager. This would have introduced them to "us", but I doubt we would have been perceived as a threat, considering at the time the only people the Borg had assimilated were 3 civilians and one transport ship.

EDIT: Although the Borg HAD assimilated the colonies along the neutral zone, this was only just prior to Q Who. If you want, you could assume that the cube from system J-25 had assimilated the colonies in the neutral zone, and was returning to the collective at the time the Enterprise D encountered it.

doubleohfive April 13 2010 09:59 PM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
Quote:

Dac wrote: (Post 3994333)
The only prior contact with the federation was with the Hansen's as seen in Voyager. This would have introduced them to "us", but I doubt we would have been perceived as a threat, considering at the time the only people the Borg had assimilated were 3 civilians and one transport ship.

But they didn't just assimilate "3 civilians and one transport ship." -- the collective also assimilated everything the Hansens knew and whatever they could learn from their ship. While that still may not be enough to constitute a threat to them, it's a whole hell of a lot more information if they'd been taken by say the Klingons or the Kazon.

Dac April 14 2010 12:03 AM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
Quote:

doubleohfive wrote: (Post 3994346)
Quote:

Dac wrote: (Post 3994333)
The only prior contact with the federation was with the Hansen's as seen in Voyager. This would have introduced them to "us", but I doubt we would have been perceived as a threat, considering at the time the only people the Borg had assimilated were 3 civilians and one transport ship.

But they didn't just assimilate "3 civilians and one transport ship." -- the collective also assimilated everything the Hansens knew and whatever they could learn from their ship. While that still may not be enough to constitute a threat to them, it's a whole hell of a lot more information if they'd been taken by say the Klingons or the Kazon.


But that's assuming they had information on starfleet tech. I'd assume most of that would have been classified to starfleet personel. If the Borg assimilated me today, they'd know that the US Military has aircraft carriers and atomic bombs and the like, but they wouldnt know anything about the placement of airbases, missile installations or anything of any tactical value.

As far as I can remember, the Hansens were civilian scientists who studied exobiology. Outside of basic warp theory and weapons understanding, I doubt they knew much about the inner workings of Starfleet or federation technology.

Nerys Myk April 14 2010 12:30 AM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
Quote:

KingDaniel wrote: (Post 3994183)
doubleohfive, the legacy walls included sailing ships and the NASA space shuttle (no Richard Branson VSS Enterprise either :p). No "in-universe" reason to exclude it. I liked how they mentioned in Enterprise that Archer had planets named after him - and then I saw a TNG that ended with them setting course for one! Obviously a fluke, but still cool.

But each display was differerent. They incuded some ships named Enterprise but not all. There were multiple aircraft carriers with that name but only one is represented on the TMP and TNG walls. (and on the NX01 display) The Ring ship is ony in the TMP display. I think the Ent-E only has Federation starships in its display.

doubleohfive April 14 2010 04:21 AM

Re: Did First Contact change the timeline?
 
The point is ... it's not that big a deal.


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