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-   -   was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=118834)

indolover April 13 2010 03:42 AM

was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Do Klingons only talk a good game about honour? Was Ezri Dax right to say this to Worf?

Or are Klingons only fallible like humans, and cannot be expected to be perfect?

Navaros April 13 2010 03:50 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Klingons are definitely hypocrites. Always whining about honor, yet they do dishonorable things all the time like: stabbing a man in the back; killing an unarmed man (yet they claim they wouldn't even attack an unarmed man); wanting to legally persecute others who have killed a Klingon one-on-one in a fair and honorable fight, even though that is their favorite method to solve disputes; claming that they are only allowed to challenge their direct superior officer to a duel, yet violating that rule when it's convenient because they don't want to kill their superior officer who is friend; etc. etc.

ProtoAvatar April 13 2010 09:30 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Quote:

indolover wrote: (Post 3992517)
Do Klingons only talk a good game about honour? Was Ezri Dax right to say this to Worf?

Or are Klingons only fallible like humans, and cannot be expected to be perfect?

The klingons are bullies - always talking about how honorable they are, yet always defining that honor differently in order to suit their interests.

Admiral Shran April 13 2010 12:00 PM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
The Klingons are definitely hypocrites, but no more so than the Federation.

The Klingons talk a big game about honor, but then constantly act dishonorably.

The Federation talks a big game about understanding and acceptance, but then constantly judges others by UFP standards.

Nerys Ghemor April 13 2010 01:48 PM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Shran--you pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned.

ProtoAvatar April 13 2010 08:09 PM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Quote:

Admiral Shran wrote: (Post 3993012)
The Klingons are definitely hypocrites, but no more so than the Federation.

The Klingons talk a big game about honor, but then constantly act dishonorably.

The Federation talks a big game about understanding and acceptance, but then constantly judges others by UFP standards.

That's because the Federation actually follows its moral code.
The alternative is not applying this moral code when it comes to others - aka betraying its morals. The prime directive streches the limit of its morality as it is.

The klingons's honor code, on the other hand, changes with the situation.
And the cardassians' morals - well, ask bajorans about it.

Quote:

Nerys Ghemor wrote: (Post 3993091)
Shran--you pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned.

Envy is NOT a desirable trait, Nerys Ghemor.

Ensign_Redshirt April 13 2010 08:51 PM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
After having watched TNG's "Sins of the Father" and "Renunion" just recently, I'm inclined to say that Ezri was spot-on with her analysis. ;)

Of course, there are Klingons who live up to their ideals (Worf, Martok), but it often seems that they're a minority.

Navaros April 13 2010 09:21 PM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Worf doesn't live up to his ideals, he's a hypocrite just like all the rest. Worf murdered an unarmed Weyoun, and also challenged Gowron to a duel even though according to Klingon rules he was only allowed to challenge Martok.

Admiral Shran April 14 2010 12:17 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Quote:

ProtoAvatar wrote: (Post 3993989)
Quote:

Admiral Shran wrote: (Post 3993012)
The Klingons are definitely hypocrites, but no more so than the Federation.

The Klingons talk a big game about honor, but then constantly act dishonorably.

The Federation talks a big game about understanding and acceptance, but then constantly judges others by UFP standards.

That's because the Federation actually follows its moral code.
The alternative is not applying this moral code when it comes to others - aka betraying its morals. The prime directive streches the limit of its morality as it is.

If its moral code is to accept others' ways and beliefs, how is it following that code to impose someone else's ways and beliefs on others and expect them to follow UFP, or more often Earth, standards? Being accepting of others means you can't expect them to be just like you.

Also, while I think Ezri was spot on about the hypocrisy of the Klingons, I think she was wrong about one thing. She asks Worf if there has ever been a single Klingon Chancellor worthy of respect. I'd say there was at least one - Gorkon.

mattyhugh April 14 2010 12:24 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Quote:

Admiral Shran wrote: (Post 3994695)
Quote:

ProtoAvatar wrote: (Post 3993989)
Quote:

Admiral Shran wrote: (Post 3993012)
The Klingons are definitely hypocrites, but no more so than the Federation.

The Klingons talk a big game about honor, but then constantly act dishonorably.

The Federation talks a big game about understanding and acceptance, but then constantly judges others by UFP standards.

That's because the Federation actually follows its moral code.
The alternative is not applying this moral code when it comes to others - aka betraying its morals. The prime directive streches the limit of its morality as it is.

If its moral code is to accept others' ways and beliefs, how is it following that code to impose someone else's ways and beliefs on others and expect them to follow UFP, or more often Earth, standards? Being accepting of others means you can't expect them to be just like you.

Also, while I think Ezri was spot on about the hypocrisy of the Klingons, I think she was wrong about one thing. She asks Worf if there has ever been a single Klingon Chancellor worthy of respect. I'd say there was at least one - Gorkon.


Perhaps, but considering Gorkon is a Gorbachev/Lincoln hybrid we can fault in both those men, so who knows what Gorkon did pre assassination.

darkwing_duck1 April 14 2010 12:33 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Quote:

Admiral Shran wrote: (Post 3994695)

If its moral code is to accept others' ways and beliefs, how is it following that code to impose someone else's ways and beliefs on others and expect them to follow UFP, or more often Earth, standards? Being accepting of others means you can't expect them to be just like you.

I presume that you are referring to things like threatening to deny the Bajoran pettition for membership because of their practice of a caste system? Or their unwillingness to allow Roga Danar's people to join until they had settled the issue of the mistreatment of their war veterans? Or perhaps the Timicin incident?

There is a common social and moral standard that a society must agree to in order to become a Federation member. Each society is allowed to decide for itself if it can accept those social and moral strictures. The Federation, however, has NEVER forced anyone to join it.

Of course, that begs the entire question of whether or not all value systems are of equal worth to begin with. Is it acceptable to say "It's their way" when a society practices racial or caste discrimination? Is it right for them to look aside when a society kills otherwise healthy and productive citizens just because they reach a certain age? Is it right to say nothing when a planet essentially makes slaves out of a certain portion of it's population?

Admiral Shran April 14 2010 12:54 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Quote:

darkwing_duck1 wrote: (Post 3994732)
I presume that you are referring to things like threatening to deny the Bajoran pettition for membership because of their practice of a caste system? Or their unwillingness to allow Roga Danar's people to join until they had settled the issue of the mistreatment of their war veterans? Or perhaps the Timicin incident?

There is a common social and moral standard that a society must agree to in order to become a Federation member. Each society is allowed to decide for itself if it can accept those social and moral strictures. The Federation, however, has NEVER forced anyone to join it.

Of course, that begs the entire question of whether or not all value systems are of equal worth to begin with. Is it acceptable to say "It's their way" when a society practices racial or caste discrimination? Is it right for them to look aside when a society kills otherwise healthy and productive citizens just because they reach a certain age? Is it right to say nothing when a planet essentially makes slaves out of a certain portion of it's population?

A few examples of what I was thinking of....

TOS - The Return of the Archons - They pass judgement on the concept of the Festival because it's not what Humans would do.

TNG - Suddenly Human - They simply assume that Jono would natuarally want to return to his Human family. They also look down on the Talarian concept of taking war orphans and raising them as their own children.

DS9 - Just about any Starfleet officer's, other than Sisko in the later seasons, reaction to the Bajoran religion.

VOY - False Profits - Janeway, using Human standards, flat out rejects any concept that the Takarian religion might be correct or in any benefical.

Gagarin April 14 2010 01:48 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
After watching-through 80 percent of TNG, I had this striking thought:

Worf, having grown up AWAY from Klingons, only knowing ... really ... of his people through what he can study, read, etc at first... has sooooo high ideals, that I wonder if it's like a human trying to understand his culture by reading the Holy Bible and base their life, their understanding how things should be, all on a face-value reading of trying to replicate life as an Ancient-Near-East person. The problem would be this person exists in the 21st century and no one would have a clue what the Year Of Jubilee is, nor would he find The Temple, or the Ark Of The Convanent - or any Levitical Priests laying around.

I often wondered if your average, every-day, non-Starship commander Klingon, would look at Worf and say "What the hell are you talking about? You've read too many story books about us."

So, yes Klingons are hypocrits, because everyone is, but I wonder if Worf keeps trying to compare reality to an idealized existence that everyone else but him is in touch doesn't exist. Worf is a romantic, if there was one.

Also, as far as honor goes, and prisoners/no prisoners/not stabbing in back, etc... I wonder if part of what we experience is Klingon's changing views of humans/Federation. It could be that they were so thought down upon that they were not warriors, nor deserving or capable of honor, and were to be treated accordingly. They were devious and conniving. Humans were pests. Over the course of time this changed, somewhat.

Nerys Ghemor April 14 2010 02:04 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Quote:

ProtoAvatar wrote: (Post 3993989)
Quote:

Nerys Ghemor wrote: (Post 3993091)
Shran--you pretty much summed it up as far as I'm concerned.

Envy is NOT a desirable trait, Nerys Ghemor.

I don't know where you're pulling this "envy" stuff from, but as I believe I have made abundantly clear before, I do not envy the Federation...I am suspicious of it and would not want to live there. Were I in the Trekiverse, I would emigrate AWAY from it. A non-Federation colony, populated by people from species that are IN the Federation...that might work. But a Federation member world...I don't want anything to do with it.

Sci April 14 2010 02:05 AM

Re: was ezri right in Tacking into the Wind - are Klingons hypocrites?
 
Klingons are just people. Nothing more and nothing less. Some Klingons are good and honorable people. Some are hypocritical bastards. Some are amoral SOBs. And some are honest folk. And there are plenty of others to be found at all points in between.

You know, just like real cultures.


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