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ryan123450 August 13 2009 12:43 AM

Romulan questions
 
I can't really remember the whole Romulan bird of prey storyline from one of the Vanguard books. Can anyone remind me what exactly happened? It's not talked about on Memory-Beta.

Also how does this fit in with the Romulan storyline from IDW's Alien Spotlights and The Hollow Crown? Do these overlap/contradict or could fit within the same continuity?

Thanks so much for anyone's help?

Deranged Nasat August 13 2009 12:50 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

ryan123450 wrote: (Post 3291512)
I can't really remember the whole Romulan bird of prey storyline from one of the Vanguard books. Can anyone remind me what exactly happened? It's not talked about on Memory-Beta.

Also how does this fit in with the Romulan storyline from IDW's Alien Spotlights and The Hollow Crown? Do these overlap/contradict or could fit within the same continuity?

Thanks so much for anyone's help?




The comic story is incompatable with the novels, as everyone's favourite insane praetor clearly isn't elderly Vrax, who is in charge there. :)

Christopher August 13 2009 01:09 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 3291536)
The comic story is incompatable with the novels, as everyone's favourite insane praetor clearly isn't elderly Vrax, who is in charge there. :)

Memory Beta says:
Quote:

Vrax being Praetor in 2265 may indicate that he is the Praetor who was assassinated by his son, who subsequently took the praetorship, as described in Alien Spotlight: Romulans, set in 2266.
By my estimate, going by date references in Open Secrets, "Balance of Terror" (and therefore Alien Spotlight: Romulans) is at least five months after Summon the Thunder. As far as I can tell, there's no irreconcilable inconsistency between VNG and Byrne's Romulan story -- though that may change in Byrne's later Romulan comics.

Deranged Nasat August 13 2009 01:12 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 3291602)
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 3291536)
The comic story is incompatable with the novels, as everyone's favourite insane praetor clearly isn't elderly Vrax, who is in charge there. :)

Memory Beta says:
Quote:

Vrax being Praetor in 2265 may indicate that he is the Praetor who was assassinated by his son, who subsequently took the praetorship, as described in Alien Spotlight: Romulans, set in 2266.
By my estimate, going by date references in Open Secrets, "Balance of Terror" (and therefore Alien Spotlight: Romulans) is at least five months after Summon the Thunder. As far as I can tell, there's no irreconcilable inconsistency between VNG and Byrne's Romulan story -- though that may change in Byrne's later Romulan comics.

Hmmm, thanks. I had the impression the comic was implying the Praetor had been in power longer than a few months. I suppose it's up to new Vanguard books to either acknowledge the comic or not.

Christopher August 13 2009 01:42 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 3291620)
I had the impression the comic was implying the Praetor had been in power longer than a few months.

I just reviewed the story, and if anything it implies that the Praetor has only recently come to power. For instance, on the bottom of the 13th page, the Praetor is monologuing supervillain-style and says:
Quote:

Watching [my father] wield his power made me hunger for the day the throne would come to me. And it has!
That phrasing suggests it's a recent event. Also, on the 20th page, the Commander and the Centurion are discussing how things have changed since the new Praetor took over, again giving the impression that the current state of affairs is relatively new.

Quote:

I suppose it's up to new Vanguard books to either acknowledge the comic or not.
Well, I haven't read the comic's sequel, The Hollow Crown, so I don't know if the Byrne version remains compatible with the novels. And the conclusion, Schism, hasn't come out yet.

Deranged Nasat August 13 2009 01:46 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 3291740)
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 3291620)
I had the impression the comic was implying the Praetor had been in power longer than a few months.

I just reviewed the story, and if anything it implies that the Praetor has only recently come to power. For instance, on the bottom of the 13th page, the Praetor is monologuing supervillain-style and says:
Quote:

Watching [my father] wield his power made me hunger for the day the throne would come to me. And it has!
That phrasing suggests it's a recent event. Also, on the 20th page, the Commander and the Centurion are discussing how things have changed since the new Praetor took over, again giving the impression that the current state of affairs is relatively new.

Quote:

I suppose it's up to new Vanguard books to either acknowledge the comic or not.
Well, I haven't read the comic's sequel, The Hollow Crown, so I don't know if the Byrne version remains compatible with the novels. And the conclusion, Schism, hasn't come out yet.

Ah, well, I don't have the comic, only read it once, so my memory of it was possibly off. Don't know where my impression came from then. :) Thanks for clarifying. I tend not to pay as much attention to comics as they don't fit into the main novel continuity. I must say, I'm quite liking the idea of Vrax having a power-mad son, now :lol:.

Jbarney August 13 2009 04:02 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 3291602)
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 3291536)
The comic story is incompatable with the novels, as everyone's favourite insane praetor clearly isn't elderly Vrax, who is in charge there. :)

Memory Beta says:
Quote:

Vrax being Praetor in 2265 may indicate that he is the Praetor who was assassinated by his son, who subsequently took the praetorship, as described in Alien Spotlight: Romulans, set in 2266.
By my estimate, going by date references in Open Secrets, "Balance of Terror" (and therefore Alien Spotlight: Romulans) is at least five months after Summon the Thunder. As far as I can tell, there's no irreconcilable inconsistency between VNG and Byrne's Romulan story -- though that may change in Byrne's later Romulan comics.


This has me curious, I just read the Alien Spotlight story, a couple of days ago. I wasn't sure if it was a story that goes into late 2265 or sometime in 2266. I haven't read the Byrne story yet, but does something specfically place it in 2266?

Christopher August 13 2009 04:07 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Jbarney wrote: (Post 3292225)
This has me curious, I just read the Alien Spotlight story, a couple of days ago. I wasn't sure if it was a story that goes into late 2265 or sometime in 2266. I haven't read the Byrne story yet, but does something specfically place it in 2266?

It's a direct prequel to "Balance of Terror," showing how and why the Commander was sent on the mission depicted in that episode. Therefore it must take place very soon before BoT, only as much time as it takes to travel from Romulus to the Neutral Zone.

And I'm confused. The Alien Spotlight Romulan story is the Byrne story. So how can you have just read it and not read it yet?

EmperorKalan August 13 2009 07:58 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 3292248)
Quote:

Jbarney wrote: (Post 3292225)
This has me curious, I just read the Alien Spotlight story, a couple of days ago. I wasn't sure if it was a story that goes into late 2265 or sometime in 2266. I haven't read the Byrne story yet, but does something specfically place it in 2266?

It's a direct prequel to "Balance of Terror," showing how and why the Commander was sent on the mission depicted in that episode. Therefore it must take place very soon before BoT, only as much time as it takes to travel from Romulus to the Neutral Zone.

And I'm confused. The Alien Spotlight Romulan story is the Byrne story. So how can you have just read it and not read it yet?

My guess would be that "the Byrne story" referenced above is The Hollow Crown.

Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 3291602)
Memory Beta says:
Quote:

Vrax being Praetor in 2265 may indicate that he is the Praetor who was assassinated by his son, who subsequently took the praetorship, as described in Alien Spotlight: Romulans, set in 2266.

I wrote that line, my calculations working out pretty much as yours did.

Byrne's main divergence from other treatments of the Romulans is in portraying the praetorship as a hereditary office with near-absolute power. Vulcan's Heart and other Sherman & Schwartz stories had the Praetor as a sort of Shogun, commanding the military and ruling the empire in the name of a hereditary emperor. Most of the praetorial successions we know of were not hereditary. It's been too long since I've read any of the Rihannsu books that I don't feel confident to comment on anything they said about this.

On the other hand, despite Byrne's different take on the structure, it's still not actually incompatible with other versions. For instance, if one assumed S&S's version of the Romulan government structure, given controversial nature of some of the brewing policies (relations with the Klingons, starting a new war with the Federation), factions of the Senate supporting those policies might easily support making Young Smirky praetor following Vrax's death as a manipulable buffer and if need be scapegoat. That's a bit more complex than Byrne's depiction, but greater "stretching" has been known to happen.

Deranged Nasat August 13 2009 10:02 AM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Thanks, EmperorKalan. To clarify my earlier comment that Vrax having a power-mad son is amusing, it's funny to consider that, to those who have been following the "Enterprise" post-finale as well as "Vanguard", it's clear Vrax doesn't have a clear or easy path to the praetorship. His experience of politics consists of some very prominent ups and downs, and I imagine he developed a very complex and, well, wise view of the empire's internal workings, seemingly having taken a long, difficult and dangerous road to get to his final position. Vrax does seem a reasonably cautious type. It's amusing to imagine his son (if he indeed exits...)understanding none of this, instead seeing political power in simple, greedy "whoopie, I'm in charge now!" terms, and happily jumping into a position left vacant by his father (indeed, assassinatng his father) with the idea that he'll have whatever he wants, NOW. :)

Jbarney August 13 2009 12:41 PM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 3292248)
Quote:

Jbarney wrote: (Post 3292225)
This has me curious, I just read the Alien Spotlight story, a couple of days ago. I wasn't sure if it was a story that goes into late 2265 or sometime in 2266. I haven't read the Byrne story yet, but does something specfically place it in 2266?

It's a direct prequel to "Balance of Terror," showing how and why the Commander was sent on the mission depicted in that episode. Therefore it must take place very soon before BoT, only as much time as it takes to travel from Romulus to the Neutral Zone.

And I'm confused. The Alien Spotlight Romulan story is the Byrne story. So how can you have just read it and not read it yet?

I understand that it is a prequel to "Balance of Terror". Its just nothing in the story concretely establishes when it takes place. In my mind I left the possibility of late 2265 open if there were other events that might have unfolded before "Balance of Terror".

Its prequel status doesn't accurately place it in the timeline. While I agree its very likely it happened in 2266 I was just leaving the possibility open for a longer period of time. I'm just wondering if the marketing department at IDW said that it happens "months", "weeks" or "days" before the episode.

The Byrne story I have not read is "The Hollow Crown", the same one you mention in an earlier post.

Perhaps that will have a line in it about the length of time involved.

Christopher August 13 2009 01:35 PM

Re: Romulan questions
 
^Like I said, given the events of the comic, the interval between it and "Balance of Terror" would be no greater than the time it takes for the Commander to board his ship, get it underway, and reach the Neutral Zone. It would be speculating beyond the text, and going against its clear intent, to assume there were any intervening events between this story and BoT.

Going by the map of Romulan space from BoT, the distance from Romulus to the nearest outpost (assuming they're in roughly the same plane) is about three times the distance between any two outposts. We know that Outpost 3 went dark only an hour after Outpost 2, suggesting a travel time from Romulus of only three hours. Even if we assume it took the Commander and his crew a few hours to get the ship ready before disembarking, it's probable that Alien Spotlight story takes place less than a day before "Balance of Terror."

EmperorKalan August 13 2009 02:28 PM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 3292899)
Thanks, EmperorKalan. To clarify my earlier comment that Vrax having a power-mad son is amusing, it's funny to consider that, to those who have been following the "Enterprise" post-finale as well as "Vanguard", it's clear Vrax doesn't have a clear or easy path to the praetorship. His experience of politics consists of some very prominent ups and downs, and I imagine he developed a very complex and, well, wise view of the empire's internal workings, seemingly having taken a long, difficult and dangerous road to get to his final position. Vrax does seem a reasonably cautious type. It's amusing to imagine his son (if he indeed exits...)understanding none of this, instead seeing political power in simple, greedy "whoopie, I'm in charge now!" terms, and happily jumping into a position left vacant by his father (indeed, assassinatng his father) with the idea that he'll have whatever he wants, NOW. :)

It's a common-enough cause for the fall of dynasties. Arguably, it works even better in an S&S-type structure where the praetorship is not usually hereditary. In a dynastic situation, at least some effort is made to train the heirs for the time they will have to take over. Smirky (my nickname for him, since we never learned his real name) is so arbitrary and ham-handed that he doesn't appear to have had any such training. Of course, there's no accounting for self-centered petulance, so it's also possible he did get training, but just ignored it all.

Deranged Nasat August 13 2009 02:30 PM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

EmperorKalan wrote: (Post 3293257)
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 3292899)
Thanks, EmperorKalan. To clarify my earlier comment that Vrax having a power-mad son is amusing, it's funny to consider that, to those who have been following the "Enterprise" post-finale as well as "Vanguard", it's clear Vrax doesn't have a clear or easy path to the praetorship. His experience of politics consists of some very prominent ups and downs, and I imagine he developed a very complex and, well, wise view of the empire's internal workings, seemingly having taken a long, difficult and dangerous road to get to his final position. Vrax does seem a reasonably cautious type. It's amusing to imagine his son (if he indeed exits...)understanding none of this, instead seeing political power in simple, greedy "whoopie, I'm in charge now!" terms, and happily jumping into a position left vacant by his father (indeed, assassinatng his father) with the idea that he'll have whatever he wants, NOW. :)

It's a common-enough cause for the fall of dynasties. Arguably, it works even better in an S&S-type structure where the praetorship is not usually hereditary. In a dynastic situation, at least some effort is made to train the heirs for the time they will have to take over. Smirky (my nickname for him, since we never learned his real name) is so arbitrary and ham-handed that he doesn't appear to have had any such training. Of course, there's no accounting for self-centered petulance, so it's also possible he did get training, but just ignored it all.

That certainly makes sense to me! Praetor Smirky is now his official name, I might add. :)

Jbarney August 13 2009 08:37 PM

Re: Romulan questions
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 3292248)
Quote:

Jbarney wrote: (Post 3292225)
This has me curious, I just read the Alien Spotlight story, a couple of days ago. I wasn't sure if it was a story that goes into late 2265 or sometime in 2266. I haven't read the Byrne story yet, but does something specfically place it in 2266?

It's a direct prequel to "Balance of Terror," showing how and why the Commander was sent on the mission depicted in that episode. Therefore it must take place very soon before BoT, only as much time as it takes to travel from Romulus to the Neutral Zone.

And I'm confused. The Alien Spotlight Romulan story is the Byrne story. So how can you have just read it and not read it yet?

Okay, I just doubled checked. The Alien Spotlight:Romulans was written by Ian Edgington, not John Byrne.

I think any speculation that the Alien Spotlight story (Ian Edgington) happens hours before "Balance of Terror" is equal to any speculation that it happens days or weeks (or longer) before the episode.

Again, I have not yet read Byrne's Hollow Crown, (or The Vangaurd books) but the speculation here that the Praetor in the comics could be Vrax's son (or at least took over very recently) is supported by the dialogue between the Praetor and Admiral on pages 7 and 8 of Alien Spotlight. The Admiral appears to be coaching the Praetor on Commander/Senator Acastus and how popular he is with the people. A Praetor who had been in power for any length of time would likely have some more in depth knowledge of his own political enemies within the Empire. So this is some solid speculation and I think it fits.

To the other topic, I'm not saying Alien Spotlight Romulans could not have happened directly (hours) before "Balance of Terror", but I just think one guess is as equal to any other speculation. I mean, consider this: Within the events of Alien Spotlight Romulans the Romulan fleet lost the ship piloted by Ceraph the unificationist and the newest and final ship of the dreadnought class. Perhaps the Praetor was so blood thirsty he didn't mind writing off two vessels (one brand new) hours before launching an attack against the UFP but that seems pretty risky.

Also in the last pages of Alien Spotlight:Romulans there is no discussion between the Praetor and the Romulan admiral about attacking the UFP. The Praetor doesn't seem concerned about the UFP, he doesn't issue orders for an attack against the UFP. He says to the admiral that the Empire will devote its resources to building more Ghost Ships and their disruption weapons.

Perhaps Byrne might offer some comment on the subject, but until then I just don't see where one viewpoint is any more concrete than the other.


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