new Shogun adaptation coming...

Discussion in 'TV & Media' started by arch101, Jan 31, 2021.

  1. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Moderator

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    Wow. I was completely blown away and surprised at the ending. This episode was Mariko's from beginning to end and Anna Sawai was more than up to the challenge.
     
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  2. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I completely understand where you're coming from and ages ago i was in the same boat for a different novel ( The Physician by Noah Gordon and the movie adaptation of the book).

    I was also a bit surprised by how secondary Blackthorne seemed to appear in this show, at least in the second half of it, and while we had several scenes and episodes that explained their developing feelings the producers and writers decided to focus their attention more on the political drama and make the japanese characters more central. I love it and am not upset about it because what we got is so utterly brilliant it's easy for me to "forgive" straying from the novel.

    Since they changed quite a bit from the novel i am now more than curious how the show will conclude for certain characters. Some things will have to happen for it all to make sense but i am really interested in the details now.

    In related issues i have watched some reaction videos for this episode and all of them were powershocked by the end. Not quite Red Wedding devastated but you felt that Mariko has gotten close to the audience and they thought she was safe after she won the political battle. The book and the show didn't pull any punches and it's a big reason why i love it for decades, ever since i read it as a teenager and watched the original 80s show.
     
  3. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Moderator

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    Yep. I was completely blown away.

    :whistle:
     
  4. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ISWYDT. :techman:
     
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  5. 1987SpaceGuy

    1987SpaceGuy Captain Captain

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    saw the finale - it was not at all what I expected - but I think they stuck the landing, it feels satisfying and I got outsmarted by Toranaga a final time ;)

    Loved how Blackthorne wished Fuji well ("best nun") and that they helped each other to release the remains of their loved ones to the ocean together.

    Buntaro - what an anticlimactic end - just WTF

    Looking back Mariko's red lip gloss during one of the final episodes could have been a subtle hint that she and her mission is "crimson (red) sky".

    I am really confused however as to why we see the flash forward scenes of old Blackthorne in England on his death bed and why has he - what I believe is - Mariko's rosary/cross? Did he outlive Toranago and/or was able to flee?
    Toranaga clearly has no plans to let him leave ("will have to destroy the ship again") and Blackthorne put Mariko's rosary/cross into the ocean.


    I'm looking forward to dig into all the accompanying videos, actual history and more, including a rewatch.

    Shogun - what an amazing masterpiece of a TV series :adore:
     
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  6. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    And there it is, the finale has come to one of the best miniseries in recent years. Perfectly planned, executed and leaving on a high note the way all shows should ( but sadly most overstay their welcome).

    I honestly love that they didn't go full Samurai and show that massive battle at Sekigahara, which was an actually historic battle where Tokugawa Ieyasu, the inspiration and historical figure that formed the basis for the character of Toranaga, won and ushered in a peace period that lasted until the mid 1800s. No huge action in this one, just people being shell shocked by the events of the last episode and coming to terms with the new reality and some reveals.

    As i knew the story already the broad story points were familiar to me but still the show did so much with the book that i am simply in awe. I am still a huge fan of the 80s show but this one is superior on so many levels because it doesn't go for the easy storybeats and simple action but focuses on much harder to achieve elements like well written characters that have been portrayed by actors at the top of their game.

    I rarely get emotional over scenes but Blackthorne sitting with Fuji looking over the garden with Mariko missing ("No translator") and the sea burial they do later on had me choke up hard.

    Apart from the fallout of Mariko's death and the resulting turmoil Yabushige / Tadanobu Asano dominates much of the episode as he is ordered to pay for his crime and gets his affairs in order. His conversation with Toranaga is fascinating to watch as he makes peace with his fate and uses the opportunity to get clarity which he only achieves in part because "Why tell a dead man the future?" ( a line so awesome in itself and in context it sent a shiver down my spine).

    If this show doesn't clean out the major awards i don't know anymore.


     
  7. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Finished this morning, and my frustrations with the adaptation eased slightly now that I've seen it in its entirety.

    My God, what a magnificent effort!

    I've come to realize that this version of Shogun is to Clavell's book what Peter Jackson's movies are to Tolkien's LOTR.

    I'm going to spoiler the remainder of my comments for those who haven't seen this yet. Warning: it contains book spoilers as well.

    If there is one overarching gripe I have here, it's the treatment of Yabushige. (Kasigi Yabu). I feel he was totally mischaracterized, to the point of almost not being a Samurai character at all. Other than that, my complaints are few.

    For those not familiar with the book, Fuji is given an entirely different fate. I can accept this here because her storyline in the book is portended but not actually witnessed, because it will happen some months after the book ends. To address it on screen would have taken too much screen time and too much explanation, so this was a good alternative in a screen adaptation.

    One thing I felt was very important but left out was Blackthorne's attempt at seppuku. I see now that they merely moved it and changed the circumstances of it, and in a way it makes the lack of 'Japanese-ness' of his character more palatable through the bulk of the series. In the book, Yabu demands the villagers of Anjiro teach Anjin-san the Japanese language to an acceptable level within six months. (This is about the time in the show when he is training the cannon regiment). If he doesn't learn enough, the village will be burned and the villagers slain. Blackthorne learns of this, and as Mariko has taught him at that point, in Japan there are only Japanese solutions to problems. He threatens seppuku if Kasigi Yabu doesn't rescind his decree, his bluff is called, and he goes for it. In the book, Omi is the one who stops him. Kasigi relents, and at that moment Blackthorne is reborn Japanese, for lack of a better way to put it.

    Yabushige's final convesation with Toranaga serves as a visual substitute for Toranaga's thoughts in the book, allowing them to play out on screen without a separate narration, which is something this series avoided. The viewer is left to infer what is in Toranaga's 'inner heart,' but at the very end of the book, he makes it plain: His fate is to be Shogun. His fate was always to be Shogun. He doesn't ask for this, he just knows and accepts it is his karma.

    Although they sort of gloss over it here, Ochiba is truly the only one who understands Toranaga. She relents in the end, refusing to allow Yaemon to take the field at Sekigahara, because she knows Toranaga will kill him if he does. His banner on the field will make no difference- Toranaga will be Shogun no matter what it takes for him to get there. In fact, she, Ichido, and the Regents were right all along, and are the good guys by the letter of the law. Toranaga is a renegade who is in rebellion and means to seize power, but he achieves the one mitigating factor: In the end, he wins.

    The deathbed scenes with Blackthorne can be interpreted as one wishes. Are they real, or the hallucination of a man who was almost blown up by a ninja bomb? In the book, Blackthorne's karma is to never leave Japan. In real life, William Adams built ships and did more exploring, but he always returned to Japan, considered it his final home, and laid his bones there. He was one of two occidentals ever ranked as samurai, and the other was a member of his original crew. What of the Anjin-san in this version? I guess the viewer can decide for themselves. In all versions of the story, we ultimately leave Blackthorne in the same place: on the beach at Anjiro, engaged in his craft: ships and the sea.

    I can't remember when I've enjoyed something on TV more in recent years, except For All Mankind, which is a different animal than this production anyway. I can sit and listen to people speak Japanese all day long- I love the language, and its tones and inflections. I never watch Japanese productions (or anime) dubbed in English: I always watch in Japanese, with subtitles. Same with other foreign films, particularly those in French.

    Anyway, WOW!

    I give this a well deserved 10/10, and the awards shows don't have a hair on their ass if they don't HEAP the accolades on this production. And I entreat you: if you loved this, read the book!
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2024
  8. Set Harth

    Set Harth Admiral Admiral

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    I thought they were real at first, but is the cross he's holding the same one he drops into the water? I suppose there are always more crosses...
     
  9. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Does make for a different interpretation, doesn't it?
     
  10. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Moderator

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    The scenes with Fuji and Blackthorne were just beautiful. I don't think I've ever seen such a perfect portrayal of loss and grief.

    OK, I can buy that alternate explanation. However, it might've been better without those scenes, as they were confusing.

    That was a big question I had. However, if it was a near-death hallucination, it would make sense he'd still have her rosary.
     
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  11. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    For those who've had their interest in Japanese history sparked by this, there is an excellent 6-part documentary series on Netflix called: Age of Samurai; Battle for Japan. It starts with Nobunaga, then expands into the reign of Toyotomi Hideyoshi (The real Taiko), and finally on to the regency as depicted in this miniseries, and the rise of Tokugawa Ieyasu to the rank of Shogun. It's pretty good, with plenty of battle scenes, blood and guts. Almost a docudrama at times. It's ichiban!
     
  12. Colonel Midnight

    Colonel Midnight Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Man, I really really hope for two things following the success of this adaptation:

    1. Blu-Ray release
    2. A similar adaptation (in regards to level of detail, etc.) of Tai-Pan. The two hour movie done back in the ‘80-90s was an abomination.

    Cheers,
    -CM-
     
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  13. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Admiral Admiral

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    You’d imagine it’s bound to prompt studios to look at Clavell’s other books
     
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  14. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Tai-Pan needs a good treatment- a miniseries would work good for it as well. I love Bryan Brown and Joan Chen, but yeah, the old movie as a LOT of issues.
     
  15. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Noble House got the miniseries treatment back in the day as well, with Pierce Brosnan playing the lead.
     
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  16. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Admiral Admiral

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    I noticed that when checking out Clavell’s Wikipedia page. Is it any good?
     
  17. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's okay. Been a long time since I've seen it. As always, the book is far superior.
     
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  18. Colonel Midnight

    Colonel Midnight Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Noble House as a mini-series was pretty good - they moved the time period up to the 1980’s IIRC, while the novel is set in the 1960s with lots of Cold War/spy intrigue. John Rhys-Davies was back again as a descendent of the antagonist in Tai-pan. Good stuff.

    While they could do a mini-series of Whirlwind, I think most studios would give it a hard pass, given the setting (Revolutionary Iran in 1979/1980) and today’s happenings… Yikes!

    Gaijin would be pretty good, although who knows where Clavell was going with it when he passed on, as it’s really more just setting pieces in place for… something.

    King Rat could probably get a re-do, although it’s already a good classic movie.

    Cheers,
    -CM-
     
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  19. Forbin

    Forbin Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hoping for a BD release. Trying to watch it On Demand and it's constantly freezing, breaking up and going out of sync. That plus the constant Disney promos may cause me to do harm to my nice TV.
     
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  20. Roundabout

    Roundabout Commander Red Shirt

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    Great series, although the finale felt a bit anticlimactic. Episode 9 felt more like the climax of the series.

    Did the blast knock a few screws loose in Yabushige's head, or was he pretending? He acted somewhat erratically afterwards, like trying to catch phantom catfish or asking Blackthorne to teach him how to dive and wanting Blackthorne to take him to England.

    But even before the blast, I thought Yabushige was one of the more colorful characters in the series because he didn't always behave according to the strict cultural decorum.

    Btw, that was some wacky poem that Yabushige composed. It fit his personality so well.

    It was good to hear Toranaga tell Yabushige that Blackthorne was not important in the scheme of things.

    As the series progressed, I couldn't help but wonder why Blackthorne's presence was even needed for the plot to work. Ishido and the taiko expressed no interest in Blackthorne. At times, it seemed like Blackthorne was there just for the sake of being there. Toranaga confirmed what was apparent.

    This Shogun story really wasn't about Blackthorne. It was fitting that the last scene of the miniseries was that of Toranaga, not Blackthorne.

    I guess watching the first Shogun miniseries, with Richard Chamberlain, led me to expect that Blackthorne would play a central role in this miniseries as well.

    Sidenote. When Toranaga admitted that Blackthorne "makes me laugh", it made me think of the scene from the movie Gung Ho, where the Japanese CEO of Assan Motors says to Michael Keaton's character, "I like you. You make me laugh". It was funny to hear Toranaga say the same thing.

    Sorry about that, going from the sublime to the ridiculous.