I tend to agree. There are times I find Nemesis almost on-par with First Contact from a TNG perspective (and perhaps better). As you said...at least it feels like a movie.
For TOS it's The Wraith of Khan. For TNG it's was First Contact for years, but there was a slow slide over to Insurrection. INS has a more complex underlying story than any of the other movies, yes the execution was flawed, but the story is still there.
my main gripe with Nemesis isn't the typical argument. It's the utilization of this magical unstoppable enemy. It's the same thing that bugs me about Abrams Trek. I feel using plot devices like this signifies a lack of creative story telling, and the inability to create drama with a well thought out climax. They stepped outside the established lore of the star trek universe, to create a cheap summer blockbuster type villain. Now if you're going to create a new unknown threat, fine. But why make it this subculture of Romulans that we've apparently never heard of about, from what, 24 previous seasons of Star Trek belonging to one of the staples of the Alpha Quadrant? These 2 points really made me dislike the movie more so than the whole Data and B4 thing. I also find it a bit presumptuous to make a blanket statement about people who dislike this movie. Your retort of "everyone that likes it are sheep" is about as valid as the comment "that movie sucks". If you're going to claim to be a deep thinker, at least put together a well thought out argument.
Name one Star Trek film that didn't rely on some form of wizardry, technical alchemy, or dubious celestial power of some sort. V'ger, Genesis, The Whale Probe, Center of a Milky Way Tootsie Pop God, Super Fancy Cloaking Device, The Nexus, Borg Timewarp, Fountain of Youth particles? It's all magic. As far as the baddies themselves I would classify V'ger, Khan armed with Genesis, The Probe, "God" and The Borg all as pretty unstoppable. There are plenty of human subcultures that were never referenced in the 24 previous seasons of Star Trek either. That doesn't mean they don't exist.
+1 If you can't add anything to already created aliens, then they all come off as pretty one-note. A huge problem in the Star Trek universe. I liked the Remans. Even if I didn't, I'd still give the writers points for trying to expand on a known alien culture.
I might actually go with Generations as my favorite. I got into Star Trek around early 1993 and got hooked on TNG enough to be pretty excited for the movie when it came out. Granted I look at it through the lens of nostalgia over substance as it definitely has its issues. Meh, either Generatons or TWOK though I do love watching TMP late at night with the lights off. Love the extended tour of the Enterprise that Scotty gives Kirk.
Okay, I'll play . . . again. The Wrath of Khan The Undiscovered Country The Voyage Home Star Trek (2009) First Contact The Search for Spock Into Darkness The Motion Picture Generations Insurrection Nemesis The Final Frontier Disclaimer: Nemesis vs Insurrection is pretty much a toss-up. I've never bothered to see either of them more than once, so I can't really make any fine distinctions there.
Everyone finds different things to love about these films (yes, even Final Frontier!) and that's fair game if you ask me. For the record, mine will always always be Wrath of Khan.
I kinda see what Wulfio's getting at, maybe because it happens in so many other movies aside from JJTrek in this day and age, I think. To me, the Scimitar, the Narada, and the Vengeance all share the similarity of being not just unstoppable, but downright vicious and relentless to the point of removing tension because it just guarantees that the heroes will seek a different route. And in each case, each of them held the key to their own destruction (thalaron radiation, red matter, Khan himself). It's quite different than V'Ger or the Whale Probe, who were destructive but operating on a different plane altogether and were perhaps unaware of the damage, so a straight up confrontation was never an option to begin with. And "God" was just outright destroyed with good ol' fashioned firepower, same as Chang. The Son'a were largely held at bay at the end. Ironically, one of the most directly unstoppable ships we've seen -- a Borg Cube -- was stopped fairly early in FC. I suspect that had it been just the Cube vs. the Enterprise, that it would feel like the Scimitar or Vengeance again; but thankfully, the rest of Starfleet was there to soften it up for the killing blow.
couldn't have said it better myself cyke. You'd have to know me to understand why I used the word magical. Perhaps it was poor choice of wording on an internet forum. It was a contemptuous adjective. I just mean the unbeatable overpowered ship/enemy plot device where the good guys have to luck themselves in to winning the war/battle. It irks me to no end. It's not limited to star trek. It's found in many different sci-fi's, and I enjoy them no more than I do nemesis or abrams trek. It's the kind of scenarios you think up when you're playing with your ninja turtles/gi joes/transformers when you're 6 you know? The borg is another example, and was over the borg after best of both worlds 2 parter. FC however does not fit the mold because the cube was destroyed in the opening act, and the story didn't center around it.
Into Darkness is my favourite. Also while I enjoy TWOK I can't understand why it's rated so highly. Khan was not in my opinion a challenge tactically to Kirk. I much more enjoy the depth of Abramverse Khan.
Well, everyone is entitled to TWOK and that's fine and dandy, but Khan nearly disabled/destroyed the Enterprise in its first encounter and trapped Kirk and the Away Team on a seemingly dead planet. Kirk's experience saved them both times, so I'd say Khan's a challenge.
Um. The first time the Enterprise was saved because Spock pulled a deus ex machina out of his ass. The second time was Khan's own fault. Kirk had nothing to do with it.
Although Khan's first attack on Kirk was indeed a surprise....knowing where to hit the Enterprise and seriously impair her, that was his one whammy....Kirk made an unspoken promise to never get caught by surprise again. He was always one step ahead of Khan, even when the audience didn't know it. Ok...Khan had two whammy's. Kirk and party did lead Khan to the Genesis Device, and Khan beamed it up....ok, two surprises he pulled on Kirk. Ok....three, if you count the fact that Khan was crazy enough to actually use the Genesis Device to try and destroy Kirk in a final act of vengeance. Although the Enterprise escaped, it was due to Spock's sacrifice and death. So, three surprises by Khan....surprises that were largely spawned from desperation in seeking revenge. Khan was a challenge, but as Spock pointed out "intelligent, but not experienced". In the first encounter, Kirk was the one who thought up using Reliant's command codes to level the playing field a bit. Spock: At least we know he doesn't have Genesis. Kirk: (to Spock) Keep nodding as though I'm still giving orders. (To Saavik) Lieutenant, bring up the charts of Reliant's command console. Saavik: Reliant's command--? Kirk: (desperate whisper) Hurry! Spock: The prefix code? Kirk: It's all we've got. ------ The second time, yes, Spock spoke in code, so to speak, to Kirk on Regula I station. Spock: Admiral, if we go "by the book", like Lieutenant Saavik, hours would seem like days. Kirk: I read you, Captain, let's have it. Spock: The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days, by the book, Admiral. Kirk: Meaning you can't even beam us back? Spock: Not at present. Kirk: (thinks for second) Captain Spock, if you don't hear from us within one hour, your orders are to restore what power you can, take the Enterprise to the nearest starbase, and alert Starfleet Command as soon as you're out of jamming range. Uhura: Sir, we won't leave you behind! Kirk: Uhura, if you don't hear from us, there won't be anyone left behind. Kirk, out. (During this exchange, we see Khan has been monitoring these communications) Khan was still in pursuit of the Enterprise at this point, with only maneuvering jets to continue the chase, until Joachim reports "Impulse power restored!" Since Kirk and Co were aboard the station, and not inside the moon itself, they banked on the fact that Khan had to be listening in.) (Then, two hours later) Kirk: Kirk to Spock, it's two hours. Are you ready? Spock: Right on schedule, Admiral. Just give us your coordinates, and we'll beam you aboard. Kirk: All right! (mildly grinning at Saavik) I don't like to lose. (Now, what seems to be unspoken here is that Kirk and Spock had to have switched to an encoded channel for that exchange.) (As they're beaming up: ) Saavik: (voice modulated by transporter effect) We were immobilized. Captain Spock said it would be two days. Kirk: Come, come, Lieutenant, you of all people who go by the book. (salutations between Spock and Marcus) Saavik: By the book? Kirk: By-the-book! Regulation 45-A, when communications are being monitored during battle-- Saavik: --no uncoded messages on an open channel. (Kirk nods to Saavik.) Saavik: (to Spock) You lied. Spock: I exaggerated. Kirk: Hours instead of days....now we have minutes instead of hours! So, while Spock gave a coded hint to Kirk to speak in terms of converted time, Kirk and Spock both gambled on the notion that Khan would go hunting for them back at Regula I. Their gambit paid off. The Enterprise managed to limp to the other side of the moon, well out of Khan's sight as he would approach Regula I. They could still beam Kirk and Co. out, but they could not stay hidden from Khan for long. ---- The third encounter, inside Mutara Nebula. Spock drops the big hint to Kirk: Spock: Sporadic energy readings, portside aft. Could be an impulse turn. Kirk: He won't break off now. He's followed me this far, he'll be back. But - from- where? Spock: He's intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates-- two-dimensional thinking. Kirk: (grins in recognition) Z-minus 10,000 meters, stand by photon torpedoes. ------ In the last two cases, Spock simply offered hints to Kirk, who was quick on the uptake in both cases.